Breeders vs backyarders vs puppy mills

[Moabite]

Dog training methods, dog breeding, religion, politics are all very dangerous topics. I really like my very healthy, fully intact, sane, and happy, pure bred Boston Terrier. He is two now and can pull me on my bicycle for about 3 miles before he is warmed up enough to just find pace, then he can easily run another 10 miles at about 6 MPH without straining. His parents were from different lines, and he was given to me as a gift from my uncle's wife who bred him at home. I've seen dogs of this same breed who cost over $1000 and were fat, wall-eyed, neurotic, snot snorting freaks. Why anyone would pay that much money for a non-working dog is beyond me, but they are still much cheaper than human kids. That is why I'm gonna pay for my own surgery first, then the dog. There is no better friend than a good dog, but in order to have a good friend, you must be a good friend. Dogs aren't something to own, they are for working or for companionship. Anything else, is not fair to the dog, but if you are lucky, the dog might take pity on you and not destroy your yard and home in frustration. Cats are much easier.

"If only man would take so much interest in his own breeding as that of his animals." Mark Twain

 

[suzettex5]

Quote:
WOW!! How big is your BT? Thats quite a bit of pulling! But I know they are very strong dogs, so I'm not super suprised. I have a 4 year old BT who is of the Old English type, she is pure, but is VERY big and muscular, very often mistaken for a male. She weighs about 35 pounds, but is ALL muscle and bone. I had her spayed young, and I wonder if it has anything to do with her size since she is bigger than both her parents (whom I met and adored!). She can pull the kids around in a wagon forever! Its so cute!

My other 2 are smaller than her, but my male (intact) is almost 1 and is almost her size but not of the OE type. My other female is smaller than my male, but has all the qualities I look for in the breed. Took me years to find these dogs that are right for our family.
I agree with your assement of the breed and I hate when 'breeders' breed them down to ridiculous proportions and end up with flat faced, frog-eyed, weak kneed, balls of shivering fur, just to make a buck.

Nice post, BTW

 

[RiverOtter]

Suzette5, I think you should read what I posted again.
I would be the Last Person On Earth to add anywhere into "List of reasons to breed dog" educational for the children.
What I was doing was agreeing with SundownWaterfowl that if you feel your kids need that, you can foster for the pound and that it CAN be an educational experience for some children (older children) to see the whole process done with the care and forethought it deserves.
And that to do anything else only teaches them callousness and irresponsibility.

 

[hunterjumper999]

I'm going to chime in as a Pit Bull parent here-

I would never ever in a million years chose to adopt ANY of the bully breeds from a shelter or rescue . I just wouldn't. I will forever and a day go to reputable breeders and dog people that I can trust the reputations of for any future dogs I get.

When people ask ( via facebook, forums or the like) I advise against it as well. You just never know what you are getting ( be it spayed or intact- temperament wise). You don't know the dogs triggers ( as with ANY rescued breed) and because they are so powerful I just wont do it.


Now, most of you have read my breeding thread- and I'd consider myself to be NOT a backyard breeder, not a breeder and not a puppy mill. I am someone who got roped into having a couple of litters for a breeder i THOUGHT was wonderful ( and the local opinion is the same- you do not travel in dog circles without hearing someone say this name favorably). I do hope someday to breed high quality dogs that enhance the breed but those days are not right now.


Not sure if i added anything to the topic, but just wanted to add my .02.

 

[Moabite]

Thank you, suzettex.
Trogg isn't very big, about 22 lbs tops, and I use him more as an overdrive, but there are times when he is super motivated and will drag me at a good clip for over a mile up hill. If you could see him sleeping outside on the picnic bench, you would never imagine that he is so athletic. His pack mate is a 50 LB. APBT and border collie cross who's parents owners were irresponsible idiots. The pit bull mother stopped nursing at 4 weeks, (likely to poor nutrition or bad breeding on her part). I let the my wife's son keep it on certain conditions and promises that have been mostly broken. She is much more powerful, but can only run for a few miles before being totally winded. She is very smart, but because my stepson has bonded with his video games instead, her training has atrophied to a point of non-existence. She has personality quirks that might be lessened with lots of devotion and consistent training, but if her owner don't have time to work with her, no one else will. This brings me to my previous point. If the people who are breeding dogs were breeding dogs primarily for the best traits (and being balanced), then these dogs would stand a much better chance of finding proper people. With few exceptions, the best dogs I've ever met were mutts, which demonstrates to me that most purebreds aren't bred correctly. Behind all champion lines, are many, many dogs that were culled. That is just my perspective which is subject to change. I don't breed dogs, and I probably never will unless I circumstances lead me to be a monk and breed service dogs for the disabled. I value different perspectives as I don't have all the answers. And like anyone else who is responding to these treads, I also care very deeply for our K-9 companions.

 

[suzettex5]

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How does Trogg handle the winter up there in Utah? Im worried aout leaving my BT's out in even slightly cold weather- but they are always begging to go out!


Your right- not all breeders who are breeding for pure bred, are doing it right. There are alot of amature breeders out there who just figure if a dog LOOKS typey and is fairly healthy, then, Hey, why not me too? If everyone else is makin money, why shouldnt I? Problem with breeding for OUTSIDE looks is the inside, brain and personality, and organs may be a mess! Line breeding does NOT always result in dogs just like mommy and daddy.

Even professional breeders are not exempt from making poor decisions. I remember a few years ago when a male dog won the AKC's highest award (mid-size breed) and it was a known fact the he carried a serious, congenital, brain issue that can cause death. And yet the owners kept studing him out to breeders who would pay the fee, and then turn areound and sell the puppies for lots of money. I'm not putting the breed or dogs name out there because I think the breed its-self is so cute and I dont want to influence anyone decisions.

I dont quite understand whats going on w/your Pitt? She isnt getting training, or you have had to take over since your son isnt doing it? If so, thats soooo common! As mom, I know full well that if I allow the kids a pet, I have to ber willing to do backup care. Especially if that pet might live beyond the time when the kids go off to college.

 

[suzettex5]

Quote:
Well, I apologise then. Sometimes I read too fast and misunderstand. It looked like you had said/agreed that a family could use educational reasons for breeding. I dont think a kid at ANY age needs such an education that way. So, again, I'm sorry if I jumped the gun and thought you supported such an idea.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

I am pro-responsible breeding, but I guess maybe I think outside the box on that one.

I believe that someone breeding mutts can breed responsibly provided they follow the steps outlined in the OP for a "responsible breeder".

But that's the problem, isn't it. Most people that just want to breed their family pet to get "Another Muffy" don't follow those steps. If you get one of those puppies and you end up having some major life-changing event happen that prevents you from keeping the puppy, the breeder will not guarantee to take it back. The breeder probably did not have their dog tested for all the possible genetic defects (cross breeding has the potential to both double up on problems, and make the susceptible to a greater number of genetic defects,) and if your pup comes down with heart murmurs or umbilical hernia or blind or deaf or with hips so severely displastic by the age of six months that it has to be put down, you're just SOL.

I've personally considered tracking down Chow Chows that fit the classic size and style and breeding them. I love what the breed used to be, but don't care for the short, squat oversized Pomeranians I see these days. My foundation stock would be from BYBs because no show breeder for breed for the type I want. All dogs would be tested for every possible defect known to the breed, plus any dog requiring having it's eye's tacked would not be used. (Something most Chows these days require.) The Chows I remember and want to strive for were multi-purpose working dogs, believe it or not, but they aren't "specialists" and likely would not be able to achieve titles in any arena, especially with my training patience.

So, I would be breeding non-standard dogs that do not "work" and my foundation stock would be from BYBs. Other than that, I would follow all the standard practices of a concerned and careful breeder. I would probably still get called a BYB by the show people. But what do you think?

I guess I believe the difference between a responsible breeder and BYB or puppy mill comes down to the PERSON involved and their level of concern, care, understanding of what they are doing, and appropriate precautions. If all of that is in place, they can breed whatever dogs they so choose, and however often they choose.

 

[pardygwyn]

Quote:
This is the saddest thing I've ever read. I'm not picking on you, Suzette, because I've seen it repeated many times in many places - and I'm not exempting myself, here. It's a common sentiment and for the good of the dogs IT SHOULD NOT BE.

No matter how responsibly or carefully anyone breeds, there will ALWAYS be genetic glitches popping up. There will always be things to weed out, cancers to treat, eyes to check. Breeders need to open up and talk about what's in their lines, puppy buyers need to demand more than just a piece of paper, and the political stigma of genetic disease needs to be dropped. We won't eliminate everything because some problems like hip dysplasia are just too complex, but we could definitely reduce quite a few raging problems if people would just man up and admit that every single bloodline is going to carry SOMETHING. Let the puppy buyers decide which risks are worth taking, just like the breeders already do.

Not that it'll ever happen. But I intend to embody it to the best of my abilities.

Hopefully my puppy buyers appreciate it as much as I do when I encounter it in breeders.

As to the original topic: agreement, more or less. Though the care of breeding dogs is more of a spectrum than a stepladder. If not showing, competing or blowing money on shots I can give myself makes me less of a responsible breeder, tack me somewhere between "responsible" and "byb." I don't feel that any of the above would be beneficial to my aims as a breeder of multipurpose farm dogs. And for the record? I do breed "mutts." Or "designer dogs," if we're going to be fancy about it. But if the most compatible working line to breed to happens to have some Old Time Farm Shepherd or unregistered farm collie blended in, so be it. I'll take the risk for the temperament and the continued genetic diversity. Answers just aren't hard and fast in dogs.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Quote:
I agree with this, but I don't feel that breeding your family dog or cat is the best way to do this. I think, even better, hatch chicks. Grow them out. And eat them! Or rabbits. Actually, any species that has uses other than strictly "pet" is much better for this purpose. Get your kids involved in 4-H. I never witnessed a dog born until I was much older, but I know how to talk about the circle of life and emotionally deal with both birth and death in elementary school thanks to my 4-H rabbit and chicken projects.

Watching your family pet die is much more traumatic for a kid as a means to learn about life and death than going into the project with an understanding that you can enjoy the animals while they are there, but they are intended to have a higher purpose.

I guess my family valued our dogs more or something because they were spayed, but I did see lots of barn cats born when I was a child. It WAS traumatic. We lost many of them in infancy to genetic defects because the cats must have been very inbred, and we lost many more at their peak of cuteness due to car accidents (kittens love to get in car engines!) or our family dog playing too rough. The ones we didn't lose were dropped off in parking lots. I recall now that my favorite cat ever died due to birth complications with her umpteenth litter. Geez, I am amazed that I learned what it is to be a responsible pet owner considering my early upbringing. But I can say beyond a shadow of a doubt that the life cycle of our pet animals was a horrible and traumatic way to learn about such things when compared to the much more reasonable deaths of the food-species.