Aaaargh! Dog breeders!

[popsicle]

Quote:
So in essence we're creating 2 new breeds of dogs. One for show, and one for herding. Within 10 generations they will look and act completely different from each other.

That's pretty much exactly how it is with Siberian Huskies. My dogs are all from working lines, and don't look much like the dogs in the show ring.

 

[chickened]

I have found that the more I pay for a show quality dog from a breeder the more problems I discover as a result of inbreeding. I have found healthier dogs from 1st or 2nd generation backyard breeders that paid for a breeding from another purebred source. This is one of the reasons I stay away from SQ breeders the other reasons are price, control, and yes sometimes attitude. A reputable backyard breeder does not always mean they have a large kennel and show bloodlines. I have found dedicated pet quality breeders that do it for the love of animals to be just as knowledgeable. I absolutely do not want some breeders culls, I want pick of the litter if I am buying it.

 

[drdoolittle]

I really don't see what's wrong with them wanting you to agree to spay or neuter if you aren't going to show. These breeders have worked long and hard to build up their line, and don't want someone carelessly breeding what they've worked so hard to acheive. They have their name to consider in the showing circle also. If you show, and the dog does well, it helps to further their image. I know you said you would only be breeding if the dog showed potential as a herding dog---but how do they know you're not just feeding them a line. They can't trust everyone that shows up to buy a puppy----after all, a lot of purebred dogs end up ion shelters because the people didn't know what they were getting into.

Edited to add: I prefer mixed-breed dogs.

 

[gritsar]

I haven't read all the responses, but...

I personally feel that a spay/neuter contract is fair and protects the breed to some extent. If you want a puppy of show quality be prepared to pay a higher price and work closely with the breeder, because that dog's successes and/or failures will ultimately say alot about the breeder's lines.

I don't know if this is true without a doubt, but I recall my DH telling me that in Germany, you can't even breed a GSD until the dog has earned titles; either in the show ring or in obedience trials.

And btw, both of our GSDs came with a guarantee from the breeder in case of bad hips, bad elbows or any other congenital or genetic defect.

 

[cassie]

It's not just dog breeders. A lot of breeders get really full of themselves and it is best to avoid these types anyway. When I had dairy goats, some breeders offering stud service would issue service memos saying "does only". Meaning if I bred my doe to their buck, I could register only the resuting doe kids, not the bucks. If I am paying $100 or more for stud service, I want to register anything I please. I used to rattle the chains of these "breeders" by thanking them for telling me which of their bucks they considered not good enough to sire breeding bucks. That used to really get their goat (pun intended). Just keep looking. You should be able to find a reputable breeder that will sell you what you want. You might try going to a dog show and talking to various breeders there. They may be able to point you in the right direction.

 

[punk-a-doodle]

First off, their dogs, their rules. That said, that sort of control over an individual *I* am having responsibility over and a connection to in my home is deeply off-putting to me personally. That's why I don't buy from those kinds of breeders and go elsewhere. I don't want an animal picked out for me by the breeder 'that will suit me best'. I don't want to sign a contract where they can come on my property at any time (actually run into this one more in private rescues). Don't have anything to hide, but don't appreciate invasiveness. I definitely don't want little mandatory 'care packages' that cost three times the animal. X) With rescues, I don't want to adopt from a group that won't adopt out dogs to families with unfenced yards, or people who have children NO EXCEPTIONS. I have a fenced yard and no kids, but that sort of behavior irks me. I figure we'll all be happier that way, since I don't want to buy from them and they probably don't want me buying from them.

I've certainly been more than happy with animals I've gotten from small scale breeders focused more on pet quality than show, or adopted critters. It's a shame when you have a specific breed in mind, and run into one mindset with no other options. I'd recommend an ACD to you for all the things you want to do, and because they are widely avaiable...but I find they are a breed that people really either love or hate, and definitely don't always love.

 

[dainerra]

Quote:
In Germany, the SV controls all aspects of the German Sh epherd. First, the dog must a koer report. That states whether or not the dog meets the breed standard in conformation. Then the dog must have a minimum of a SCH 1 title. Only then is the dog approved to breed. But, that isn't the end of the hoops. The SV also decides what bloodlines are the best match for your dog. If you breed outside their guidelines, then the pups can't be registered and none of that offspring can be bred in the future.

The limited registration and spay/neuter contract is the modern way of culling. Not every dog should be bred, very few should be honestly. In every litter there are going to be pups with obvious faults that shouldn't be bred. Then you will have one that might show extreme potential at an early age. Most will fall in the middle.

How does the breeder know that you have the background and knowledge to carry on their ideal? They aren't just giving you a dog, but the potential to help or hurt their reputation.
Say you breed the dog and the pups turn out less than ideal. Who has more to lose?

Support a reponsible breeder with your money. If you don't agree with them on this, then find another breeder who shares your philosophy.

If you want a herding dog, then go to a breeder who has proven their dogs can work.

To those who said that conformation never mattered with working dogs that isn't true. Form follows function. There may be some cosmetic differences, but the dogs will be more similar over time than different.

 

[gritsar]

Quote:
In Germany, the SV controls all aspects of the German Sh epherd. First, the dog must a koer report. That states whether or not the dog meets the breed standard in conformation. Then the dog must have a minimum of a SCH 1 title. Only then is the dog approved to breed. But, that isn't the end of the hoops. The SV also decides what bloodlines are the best match for your dog. If you breed outside their guidelines, then the pups can't be registered and none of that offspring can be bred in the future.

The limited registration and spay/neuter contract is the modern way of culling. Not every dog should be bred, very few should be honestly. In every litter there are going to be pups with obvious faults that shouldn't be bred. Then you will have one that might show extreme potential at an early age. Most will fall in the middle.

How does the breeder know that you have the background and knowledge to carry on their ideal? They aren't just giving you a dog, but the potential to help or hurt their reputation.
Say you breed the dog and the pups turn out less than ideal. Who has more to lose?

Support a reponsible breeder with your money. If you don't agree with them on this, then find another breeder who shares your philosophy.

If you want a herding dog, then go to a breeder who has proven their dogs can work.

To those who said that conformation never mattered with working dogs that isn't true. Form follows function. There may be some cosmetic differences, but the dogs will be more similar over time than different.

Thanks for explaining it better Dainerra. And I wholeheartedly agree with the bold above.

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

If you are looking for quality herding dogs, you may have to forget about "top" breeders and look at people breeding farm dogs. We bought my australian cattle dog off of people who raised cattle. He had been living with his mom and siblings under their front porch. He has been the best farm dog one could ask for, even though he doesn't meet all the specific qualities "show" cattle dogs should have.

 

[pardygwyn]

Quote:
A congenital deformity is not necessarily genetic. I'd be asking his breeder if this is something that shows up in the line on a regular basis, and basing my decision off of that.

As to the OP: I agree with the people who've told you to expand your search outside your chosen breeds if you can't find what you want there. That said, it sounds like you've only just begun your search, so by all means finish it before you move on!

My first collie landed in my lap completely by chance, but I've had to step outside the AKC and search through breeder listings for years since to get collies who continue to embody what I'm looking for. My best luck in rough collies has been exclusively found in "nobody" lines bred in someone's backyard. It's not without its risks - most of these people do little to no health testing. I'm one of the few people breeding nobody collies who does their homework with each dog before breeding them, but I'm keeping my fingers crossed that more will follow my lead as the years go by and my network expands.

Good luck in your search!