Abacot and Silver (Spotty and Snowy) Call duck Thread - Genetics, etc...

[Pyxis]

The UK/US differences drive me nuts in the calls. Like Shaw said, I wish we could all use the same terms.

Right? I wish we all just called the darn color 'Harlequin' because, well, that's what it's called

 

[Upper Brook House Farm]

So in that case, they actually can't 'carry' it, since with two copies it expresses? Sorry, I'm just not used to it being used like that, lol. Here we wouldn't call the harlequin gene the 'snowy color gene' if they had two copies. We would just say they're snowy, and so they have two copies of the harlequin allele. So it's odd to me that it's called one thing when it's only present in one copy, but then suddenly has a new name when there are two copies present. It's still the same gene.

But I get that someone at some point must have decided to say it that way, and it must have stuck and that's just how you guys do it now. I just fear it could confuse someone into thinking it's a totally separate new gene, when it's not. That's why I was trying to clarify.

No, I think you misunderstood. When 2 harlequin genes mix together, it forms a completely new gene, which can mess up EVERYTHING about a bird, or make it 10 times better. THIS is the ACG.
The ACG can appear in any breed, such as the silver appleyard duck, abacot ranger duck, and abacot snowy call duck.
In the silver appleyard duck, the ACG will destroy the exhibition genotype, so the particular bird will be useless for breeding the best at a high rate.
However, with the abacot call and abacot ranger duck, it is needed to make that form. An abacot call duck would be a plain old silver if it didn’t have the ACG, and an abacot ranger would be a Welsh harlequin duck.
Does this make more sense?

 

[Upper Brook House Farm]

Personally, I think silver and abacot sounds better, but I’m just biased...

The UK/US differences drive me nuts in the calls. Like Shaw said, I wish we could all use the same terms.

 

[Upper Brook House Farm]

Guess it would've helped if I'd given more information
Thanks you guys color genetics are so fascinating!

Yes, they are!!

 

[Pyxis]

No, I think you misunderstood. When 2 harlequin genes mix together, it forms a completely new gene, which can mess up EVERYTHING about a bird, or make it 10 times better. THIS is the ACG.
The ACG can appear in any breed, such as the silver appleyard duck, abacot ranger duck, and abacot snowy call duck.
In the silver appleyard duck, the ACG will destroy the exhibition genotype, so the particular bird will be useless for breeding the best at a high rate.
However, with the abacot call and abacot ranger duck, it is needed to make that form. An abacot call duck would be a plain old silver if it didn’t have the ACG, and an abacot ranger would be a Welsh harlequin duck.
Does this make more sense?

Do you have a source for this? I ask because in all my readings, I've never come across something saying this.

The silver appleyard is a light phase duck. It shouldn't have ANY copies of the harlequin allele. Two copies would make it harlequin, which yes, would be wrong. If it had two copies of harlequin, it would have NO copies of light phase, which, as a light phase based color, means it's not correct at all. And the only way the harlequin got in there was if it was bred in, so at some point some incorrect breeding was done. Or if they had a sudden spontaneous mutation and developed the allele again, I suppose. That is how welsh harlequins happened, supposedly.

If an Abacot didn't have two copies of the harlequin gene, it would be gray (mallard), not Spot. To be Spot there would have had to have been the light phase gene present as well as one harlequin gene.

Here, this is a Snowy/Abacot genotype, right?

M+M+ li^h li^h e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

Now, say it only had one copy of harlequin, like this:

M+M+ Li+ li^h e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

That Li+ you see is wild color phase, aka mallard. It's dominant, so it expresses over both li^h and li. So with one copy of li^h and one of Li^, that duck is gray (mallard). This is the outcome if you breed a snowy to a gray.

And if it has no harlequin genes at all, then it's this:

M+M+ Li+Li+ e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

And that's just gray, regular mallard coloration. There is no li light phase gene present to make the duck Spot.

An Abacot ranger duck's genotype would be this:

M+M+ li^h li^h e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

And a Welsh Harlequin's genotype is this (I used to breed them for show):

M+M+ li^h li^h e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

They are the same. So either the genotype of the Abacot isn't actually this, meaning it's different from Snowy, or they are all the exact same color with the exact same genotype.

 

[Upper Brook House Farm]

Do you have a source for this? I ask because in all my readings, I've never come across something saying this.

The silver appleyard is a light phase duck. It shouldn't have ANY copies of the harlequin allele. Two copies would make it harlequin, which yes, would be wrong. If it had two copies of harlequin, it would have NO copies of light phase, which, as a light phase based color, means it's not correct at all. And the only way the harlequin got in there was if it was bred in, so at some point some incorrect breeding was done. Or if they had a sudden spontaneous mutation and developed the allele again, I suppose. That is how welsh harlequins happened, supposedly.

If an Abacot didn't have two copies of the harlequin gene, it would be gray (mallard), not Spot. To be Spot there would have had to have been the light phase gene present as well as one harlequin gene.

Here, this is a Snowy/Abacot genotype, right?

M+M+ li^h li^h e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

Now, say it only had one copy of harlequin, like this:

M+M+ Li+ li^h e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

That Li+ you see is wild color phase, aka mallard. It's dominant, so it expresses over both li^h and li. So with one copy of li^h and one of Li^, that duck is gray (mallard). This is the outcome if you breed a snowy to a gray.

And if it has no harlequin genes at all, then it's this:

M+M+ Li+Li+ e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

And that's just gray, regular mallard coloration. There is no li light phase gene present to make the duck Spot.

An Abacot ranger duck's genotype would be this:

M+M+ li^h li^h e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

And a Welsh Harlequin's genotype is this (I used to breed them for show):

M+M+ li^h li^h e+e+ bl+bl+ C+C+ B+B+ r+r+ D+D+ Bu+Bu+

They are the same. So either the genotype of the Abacot isn't actually this, meaning it's different from Snowy, or they are all the exact same color with the exact same genotype.

I don’t have a source for you.

The silver appleyard duck can have an extra gene, the harlequin. I went to the National Show 3 weeks ago and 4 of the 7 drakes on show had the extra harlequin gene. Ours was one of the only ones which didn’t which is why we were awarded a prize card, even though parts of our bird weren’t correct, for example the head should have been a darker shade of green (although that was due to moult.)

Even the best birds can suddenly get the extra gene and ruin the line.

 

[Pyxis]

So this website is one that I had referenced in the past that originally lead me to believe that Silver was the same as Snowy. They describe the Snowy color under the Silver heading and say that the info was pulled from the Standard.

http://www.callducks.net/standards&photos1.htm

It says that the pictures used are of Calls that were exhibited in the UK, too, so I thought they were correct when first seeing this.

I saw you were able to post pictures from your Standard for another member earlier, could you post pictures from your Standard for the Abacot and for the Silvers? I think it would be helpful to have that to post for others that might also have the same misconception I had.

 

[Upper Brook House Farm]

Yes, you see, abacots used to be allowed in the silver class, as there wasn't a proper standard for a good silver call duck. That website hasn't been updated for 7 years, and the Abacot standard was created in 2013.
I've included a photo of the silver and abacot standards. Would you like the standards for the females?

 

[Upper Brook House Farm]

So this website is one that I had referenced in the past that originally lead me to believe that Silver was the same as Snowy. They describe the Snowy color under the Silver heading and say that the info was pulled from the Standard.

http://www.callducks.net/standards&photos1.htm

It says that the pictures used are of Calls that were exhibited in the UK, too, so I thought they were correct when first seeing this.

I saw you were able to post pictures from your Standard for another member earlier, could you post pictures from your Standard for the Abacot and for the Silvers? I think it would be helpful to have that to post for others that might also have the same misconception I had.

Yes, you see, abacots used to be allowed in the silver class, as there wasn't a proper standard for a good silver call duck. That website hasn't been updated for 7 years, and the Abacot standard was created in 2013.
I've included a photo of the silver and abacot standards. Would you like the standards for the females?

 

[Pyxis]

Yes, you see, abacots used to be allowed in the silver class, as there wasn't a proper standard for a good silver call duck. That website hasn't been updated for 7 years, and the Abacot standard was created in 2013.
I've included a photo of the silver and abacot standards. Would you like the standards for the females?

Yes, if you could, since the two males look almost identical and I suspect that the females are where the differences can really be seen