Advice for breeding BBS (Blue Black Splash) genetics! 🐣

[Egzermalda]

I don't think it's the same lacing.

My Blue Australorp x Silver-Laced Cochin chicks didn't turn out laced.

OK, That is interesting and informative. I assume your Blue Australorp has the typical conspicuous lacing, like my Blue Orpington in the above pics does? Because that is exactly what I am going to do, except with the Orps. What kinds of chicks did you get? Which was the Rooster?

 

[3KillerBs]

Lacing is usually an arrangement of black pigment and gold pigment: black around the edge, gold in the middle.

Either of those pigments can be modified. The black can be diluted to blue or splash or chocolate, or Dominant White can turn it white. The gold can be darkened to red, lightened to cream, or turned white by the Silver gene. The lavender gene will dilute both the black and the gold.

So you can get blue laced silvers, white laced reds, and plenty of other combinations. But they are all based on arranging two kinds of pigment in a particular way.

Laced blues are different, because they are "black" all over: black on the edge of the feather, and black diluted to blue in the middle of the feather. Apparently blue dilutes black by a different amount depending on where it is in the feather.

You are right that whatever genes cause lacing in blues would have to be present (but not visible) in the splashes and blacks of the same breeding lines (although maybe not in blacks of black-only breeds.)

I have read that laced blues do have some of the genes that cause lacing in other colors (pattern gene and some others working in combination).

Crossing a blue to a black laced silver should give black birds and blue birds in the first generation. The black birds should not have any lacing, but the blues might show the lacing that is typical of blues. Crossing those chicks back to the black laced silver is when you might start seeing normal lacing, if the blues also had the right genes for it. Or you might see some other patterns of black and silver, if the blues did not have the right genes to cause lacing in a black-and-silver bird. (You might also see some birds with gold instead of silver, depending on what genes the blues have.)


Did those crossed chicks have the kind of lacing that blues usually do (black edge on blue feather)?

Yes, they did. I didn't keep them to maturity, but they had the same lacing on their juvenile feathers as their pure Aussie hatchmates did. Some of the cockerels had a fair amount of silver leakage, but not really lacing.

OK, That is interesting and informative. I assume your Blue Australorp has the typical conspicuous lacing, like my Blue Orpington in the above pics does? Because that is exactly what I am going to do, except with the Orps. What kinds of chicks did you get? Which was the Rooster?

Yes, you can see my rooster in my avatar. I have been choosing hens based on their good lacing and selling the ones who don't have enough lacing to suit me.

 

[Egzermalda]

Lacing is usually an arrangement of black pigment and gold pigment: black around the edge, gold in the middle.

Either of those pigments can be modified. The black can be diluted to blue or splash or chocolate, or Dominant White can turn it white. The gold can be darkened to red, lightened to cream, or turned white by the Silver gene. The lavender gene will dilute both the black and the gold.

So you can get blue laced silvers, white laced reds, and plenty of other combinations. But they are all based on arranging two kinds of pigment in a particular way.

Laced blues are different, because they are "black" all over: black on the edge of the feather, and black diluted to blue in the middle of the feather. Apparently blue dilutes black by a different amount depending on where it is in the feather.

You are right that whatever genes cause lacing in blues would have to be present (but not visible) in the splashes and blacks of the same breeding lines (although maybe not in blacks of black-only breeds.)

I have read that laced blues do have some of the genes that cause lacing in other colors (pattern gene and some others working in combination).

Crossing a blue to a black laced silver should give black birds and blue birds in the first generation. The black birds should not have any lacing, but the blues might show the lacing that is typical of blues. Crossing those chicks back to the black laced silver is when you might start seeing normal lacing, if the blues also had the right genes for it. Or you might see some other patterns of black and silver, if the blues did not have the right genes to cause lacing in a black-and-silver bird. (You might also see some birds with gold instead of silver, depending on what genes the blues have.)


Did those crossed chicks have the kind of lacing that blues usually do (black edge on blue feather)?

Thank you for the well thought out reply.

So maybe the lacing of BBS Blues is NOT the same "type" of lacing as that in Black Laced Silvers. I wonder why Splash's don't show lacing. If the blues look laced because the dilution gene only works on the inner part of the feather rather than the "black lacing" being "applied" like it is in the Black Silver Laced? This would seem to be the case given

I don't think it's the same lacing.

My Blue Australorp x Silver-Laced Cochin chicks didn't turn out laced.

I guess I will find out in a few months! Or maybe years if it takes a few generations to figure it out.

 

[Egzermalda]

Yes, they did. I didn't keep them to maturity, but they had the same lacing on their juvenile feathers as their pure Aussie hatchmates did. Some of the cockerels had a fair amount of silver leakage, but not really lacing.



Yes, you can see my rooster in my avatar. I have been choosing hens based on their good lacing and selling the ones who don't have enough lacing to suit me.

So the Roo was the Blue. In my case it will be a Silver Laced Roo over BBS hens (and SLO hens). I doubt that will make any difference to the outcome as none of the colors or lacing should be sex-linked, but you never know until you try.

 

[3KillerBs]

So the Roo was the Blue. In my case it will be a Silver Laced Roo over BBS hens (and SLO hens). I doubt that will make any difference to the outcome as none of the colors or lacing should be sex-linked, but you never know until you try.

Yes, it was a Blue Rooster over a laced hen.

 

[NatJ]

So maybe the lacing of BBS Blues is NOT the same "type" of lacing as that in Black Laced Silvers. I wonder why Splash's don't show lacing. If the blues look laced because the dilution gene only works on the inner part of the feather rather than the "black lacing" being "applied" like it is in the Black Silver Laced? This would seem to be the case given

I know part of it, but not all of it.

There is a particular spot on one chicken chromosome, called the e-locus. There are quite a few different alleles (forms of the gene) that can be there, and they all have effects on how the black & gold are distributed over the chicken.

Laced chickens often have E^R (Birchen) or e^b (partridge) at the e-locus. Then they have a combination of Pg (pattern gene), Ml (Melanotic), and Co (Columbian), sometimes with Db (Darkbrown) as well. That combination of genes makes the black and gold form lacing, rather than some other pattern. Changing one or another of the genes can give you spangled birds, or double-laced birds, or birds with a Columbian pattern, or various other patterns that may not have names.

Black chickens are typically E (Extended Black) at the e-locus. With that e-locus gene, it doesn't matter whether they have Pg, Ml, Co, and/or Db. They just look black anyway.

Blue chickens are diluted black chickens.
I have seen speculation that blue chickens with Pg, Ml, Co, and/or Db may show nice lacing, and blue chickens without those other genes may not have nice lacing. If that is true, then the laced blues may have many of the genes needed for lacing (Pg, Ml, Co, and/or Db), which would matter in a few generations when you have birds that are not E (Extended Black.) Getting rid of the Extended Black will let you see what other genes you are working with.

So lacing on blues might be "the same" in requiring Pg, Ml, Co, and/or Db (I am not positive about this.) The part I am sure about: lacing on blues is different because it is on a base of E (Extended Black), while other kinds of laced chickens have E^R (Birchen) or e^b (Partridge).

(If you're interested in the e-locus, there are also E^Wh called Wheaten, and e+ called Wild type or Duckwing. The + indicates that it is the form found in the wild junglefowl. There are almost certainly more alleles at the e-locus, but they have not all been identified and/or studied. The names Birchen, Wheaten, Partridge, and Duckwing/Wild Type are what we call a chicken's color when it is pure for that e-locus gene, and does not have other genes that affect the pattern or color.)

 

[Egzermalda]

I know part of it, but not all of it.

There is a particular spot on one chicken chromosome, called the e-locus. There are quite a few different alleles (forms of the gene) that can be there, and they all have effects on how the black & gold are distributed over the chicken.

Laced chickens often have E^R (Birchen) or e^b (partridge) at the e-locus. Then they have a combination of Pg (pattern gene), Ml (Melanotic), and Co (Columbian), sometimes with Db (Darkbrown) as well. That combination of genes makes the black and gold form lacing, rather than some other pattern. Changing one or another of the genes can give you spangled birds, or double-laced birds, or birds with a Columbian pattern, or various other patterns that may not have names.

Black chickens are typically E (Extended Black) at the e-locus. With that e-locus gene, it doesn't matter whether they have Pg, Ml, Co, and/or Db. They just look black anyway.

Blue chickens are diluted black chickens.
I have seen speculation that blue chickens with Pg, Ml, Co, and/or Db may show nice lacing, and blue chickens without those other genes may not have nice lacing. If that is true, then the laced blues may have many of the genes needed for lacing (Pg, Ml, Co, and/or Db), which would matter in a few generations when you have birds that are not E (Extended Black.) Getting rid of the Extended Black will let you see what other genes you are working with.

So lacing on blues might be "the same" in requiring Pg, Ml, Co, and/or Db (I am not positive about this.) The part I am sure about: lacing on blues is different because it is on a base of E (Extended Black), while other kinds of laced chickens have E^R (Birchen) or e^b (Partridge).

(If you're interested in the e-locus, there are also E^Wh called Wheaten, and e+ called Wild type or Duckwing. The + indicates that it is the form found in the wild junglefowl. There are almost certainly more alleles at the e-locus, but they have not all been identified and/or studied. The names Birchen, Wheaten, Partridge, and Duckwing/Wild Type are what we call a chicken's color when it is pure for that e-locus gene, and does not have other genes that affect the pattern or color.)

This is Great! Thanks! Very informative. I still have some questions, but this helps a lot. What about Splash? It seems to me that Splash should show lacing on all feathers normally laced in a Blue?

 

[NatJ]

This is Great! Thanks! Very informative. I still have some questions, but this helps a lot. What about Splash? It seems to me that Splash should show lacing on all feathers normally laced in a Blue?

I agree that it seems logical for Splash to show lacing like Blues do, but they obviously do not. I also don't know why Splashes tend to have dark "splashes" while Blues usually don't. I'm guessing it's just something different about how the gene acts where there are one vs. two copies of it, but "something acts different" is not a very helpful answer!

When I look at pictures of Blue Laced Red varieties, I can often find some Splash Laced Reds as well. The splash at the edge of the feathers (lacing) is very pale, without obvious dark areas. So maybe splash just does dilute the edge of the feathers more thoroughly than blue does?

 

[Prairie Hills Homestead]

Wowza, this thread is amazing. I am new to chicken breeding. I understand the genes behind Labrador Retriever coloring and the different colors and presentations there. I am learning so much. I recently fell in LOVE with Blue Australorps but I was trying to figure out the breeding of them. From what I understand, breeding a Blue to a Blue does not equal all blue offspring. My best chance for all blue is Splash to Black? I am building breeding pens and want to make sure I get the right birds for the colors I want to end up with.

 

[WallyG74]

Wowza, this thread is amazing. I am new to chicken breeding. I understand the genes behind Labrador Retriever coloring and the different colors and presentations there. I am learning so much. I recently fell in LOVE with Blue Australorps but I was trying to figure out the breeding of them. From what I understand, breeding a Blue to a Blue does not equal all blue offspring. My best chance for all blue is Splash to Black? I am building breeding pens and want to make sure I get the right birds for the colors I want to end up with.

You are correct! I took a SS of that little chart. It’s quite handy.