BYC Genetic/Breed Calculator Huge Task Ahead!

[Kat C]

A breed calicalur is only possible with so called PURE chickens that have been bred, inbred, linebred, so on and so forth for so long that every lurking gene and rouge bit of DNA has been bred out or more likely left laying on the butcher shop floor. Therefore it is quite possible to get some GENERAL idea of what you will end up with when you cross hen X and Rooster Y because that is already somewhat general knowledge, but the number of unknowns for subsequent generations and future out crosses are IMHO infinite. That is unless you have a database with all the genes and DNA it is possible for chickens to carry, then make you chickens spit into a test tube to be sent off for analisis before you introduce hen and rooster.

So very true as one who has crossed breeds back and forth for years! Many of our chickens have as many as 15 breeds in their ancestry, I keep a data base! However a chicken calculator of "pure" chickens can help to get an idea and certainly can help with traits like barring or blue. We got some new blood last year so we had a "pure" Marans rooster that we crossed with a blue cross bred hen. Pure is in quotes as his sisters have enough differences to tell apart on sight. The hen is 13/64 Americana, 5/32 Marans, 5/32 ?, 3/32 Game Banty, 5/64 Game, 7/64 Brazilian Game, 5/64 Wyandotte Banty, 1/32 Leghorn, 3/64 Rock, 3/64 Hamburg, solid blue with muffs. Here are pics of some of the offspring and the parents. The red pullet seems to have some blue tail feathers coming in. We have had this before where the red covers up most of the blue. One blue and two black pullets have gold on their hackle (only pictured one of the black hens). One pullet hen has no color showing in the hackle.

 

[The Moonshiner]

A breed calicalur is only possible with so called PURE chickens that have been bred, inbred, linebred, so on and so forth for so long that every lurking gene and rouge bit of DNA has been bred out or more likely left laying on the butcher shop floor. Therefore it is quite possible to get some GENERAL idea of what you will end up with when you cross hen X and Rooster Y because that is already somewhat general knowledge, but the number of unknowns for subsequent generations and future out crosses are IMHO infinite. That is unless you have a database with all the genes and DNA it is possible for chickens to carry, then make you chickens spit into a test tube to be sent off for analisis before you introduce hen and rooster.

You're trying to preach to the choir my friend.
You won't find anywhere where I've said this project calculator will work.
I know it won't. Or at least won't work the way they're thinking.
When you're talking about inbreeding, linebreeding and on and on. That's about what I'm saying about having to know the genes. But I'm saying you have to know the genes and that has nothing to do with breeding a line for 100 years.
You have to know chicken genetics. The genes and how they interact with other genes.
Just an idea of what I mean. You can have a gold duckwing bird and you can pretty much know that birds genes and what it carries and what it doesn't by the fact its a gold duckwing. You can't hide much there and it doesn't take 27 generations of that birds breeding to know that.
On the other hand you can breed a line of white birds for your grandpas, dads and your whole life and you still can't be certain what that bird can be hiding underneath.
The calculator that's out there is as good as it gets. It may seem complicated because that's how chicken genetics can get. Especially when you're trying to deal with birds when you don't know genetics or that birds genetics.
If you have a bit of a grasp on genetics and you have a grasp on the genes involved with the birds your working with then the calculator isn't all that hard to understand and use.
Thing is though when you have enough knowledge to get to that point you'll find you don't really need the calculator because you know the genes and you'll know the possible outcomes.
I like the calculator that is already out there. I don't need it really but I do use at times because it comes in handy because it can tell you the percentages of expected outcomes.
I can know if I cross A with B that I can get C,D,E and F and that F is what I want but I'm not as quick as the calculator at figuring if I have a 1 in 32 or 1 in 128 chance at getting an F.
I think the ones working on it will eventually figure out exactly how complicated and unrealistic this idea is but maybe they'll prove me wrong which would be fantastic and if they finally do see it isn't going to work then that's fine to because by that point they're gonna have learned quite a bit about chicken genetics and genes themselves which will also be fantastic.

 

[lena_]

You're trying to preach to the choir my friend.
You won't find anywhere where I've said this project calculator will work.
I know it won't. Or at least won't work the way they're thinking.
When you're talking about inbreeding, linebreeding and on and on. That's about what I'm saying about having to know the genes. But I'm saying you have to know the genes and that has nothing to do with breeding a line for 100 years.
You have to know chicken genetics. The genes and how they interact with other genes.
Just an idea of what I mean. You can have a gold duckwing bird and you can pretty much know that birds genes and what it carries and what it doesn't by the fact its a gold duckwing. You can't hide much there and it doesn't take 27 generations of that birds breeding to know that.
On the other hand you can breed a line of white birds for your grandpas, dads and your whole life and you still can't be certain what that bird can be hiding underneath.
The calculator that's out there is as good as it gets. It may seem complicated because that's how chicken genetics can get. Especially when you're trying to deal with birds when you don't know genetics or that birds genetics.
If you have a bit of a grasp on genetics and you have a grasp on the genes involved with the birds your working with then the calculator isn't all that hard to understand and use.
Thing is though when you have enough knowledge to get to that point you'll find you don't really need the calculator because you know the genes and you'll know the possible outcomes.
I like the calculator that is already out there. I don't need it really but I do use at times because it comes in handy because it can tell you the percentages of expected outcomes.
I can know if I cross A with B that I can get C,D,E and F and that F is what I want but I'm not as quick as the calculator at figuring if I have a 1 in 32 or 1 in 128 chance at getting an F.
I think the ones working on it will eventually figure out exactly how complicated and unrealistic this idea is but maybe they'll prove me wrong which would be fantastic and if they finally do see it isn't going to work then that's fine to because by that point they're gonna have learned quite a bit about chicken genetics and genes themselves which will also be fantastic.

The current idea is to be able to calculate simple crosses between pure breeds and different colour varieties of the same breed,showing all of the possible outcomes for the chicks.That's it. It does get a little deeper with things such as egg colour, but two people who both have a good grasp on genetics are working on that. The original post is completely inaccurate now to the current project. For most breeds, instead of drawing we'll get photos if possible, and Blackhackle will edit them to make the birds an ideal quality for the calculator.

 

[The Moonshiner]

I understand that and still stand by my post and opinion.
You can't just pop in two breeds and varieties and kick out the answer.

 

[Kat C]

Even with pure breeds there can be hidden genetics. ""Recessive white" chickens may be potentially black barred or of some other color pattern, but does not reveal this, unless they are submitted to a progeny test. White Plymouth Rock chickens carry a considerable mixture of genes taken from other breeds different from the original Barred Plymouth Rock from which the white variety originates" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Solid_white_(chicken_plumage)
Imagine our surprise when we crossed our White Rock hen to a Blue Hamburg rooster and got a barred rooster. Found out they breed the barring under the recessive white as it makes it whiter with less little specks. So the cross meant the offspring had only one recessive white gene, the hen threw the sex linked barring to the roosters, the chick was born black so the chick got the non-blue gene, ie black. I don't know if every White Rock chicken has barring under the white so a calculator could not predict it. OTOH a calculator can help you understand recessive vs dominant white, how the blue gene works, how the sex linked barring works. BTW the person who sold us the blue hamburg rooster didn't say he was a cross and he looked the part but in one of the cross breedings we did with him he got a few hens with straight combs so he was not homozygous for rose comb as he should have been. Just because a bird looks like a breed and is represented as a breed doesn't mean they are pure. We considered the rock hen to be one of the least attractive of all our birds, but oh
the lovely things we got when we crossed her. Pictured below is a hen out of the Rock/Blue Hamburg cross, the Rock mother, the Hamburg father and the barred son. Where was all that concentric penciling hiding in the two parents?

 

[Kat C]

Here are some of our interesting crosses. Toki's parents were both blue, the father was barred blue (hard to tell in adults sometimes but if the chick was blue, well then the barring is blue not black) So Toki came out splash, and eventually as he grew hackle and saddle a few feathers show barring.

He is
1/2 Marans,7/32 Americana, 3/64 Silver Spangled Aracauna, 1/64 Game Banty, 1/64 White Leghorn, 1/32 Mystery Game, 1/16 Wyandotte Banty, 1/32 Blue Hamburg, 1/64 White Rock, 1/16 Mugs Game

This one is splash but red replaces the blue for most of the splashes.

She is 1/4 White Rock, 3/4 Blue Hamburg .... no idea where the red came from so again our rock and our blue hamburg may have had a lot going on not obvious on the surface.
And another very different presentation of splash

Here the red predominates and the splash only shows up in the tail. Both parents were blue, one with some gold in the hackle and the other blue barred She was
1/2 Americana, 3/32 Silver Spangled Aracauana, 3/64 game banty, 3/64 white leghorn, 7/64 Americana , 1/32 Game, 1/16 Marans, 1/16 Brazilian, bit of White Rock, Rhode Island Red,
Her Americana father was given to us by a local and could well be a cross of a variety of things.
Crossing birds is so much fun!

 

[Ms Biddy]

Hi peeps, I don't know where you are currently with documenting genes and mutations for this project but I came across a good resource if it would be helpful. It's well organized and has a lot of photos. Poultry Genetics Mutations

 

[Amer]

Hi peeps, I don't know where you are currently with documenting genes and mutations for this project but I came across a good resource if it would be helpful. It's well organized and has a lot of photos. Poultry Genetics Mutations

Yup. We use it a lot. Unfortunately egg color, earlobe color, and eye color aren't on there.

 

[Ms Biddy]

Yup. We use it a lot. Unfortunately egg color, earlobe color, and eye color aren't on there.

Well, that's a bummer! I think the calculator, no matter what the short comings, can only add interest, functionality and value to the site. Particularly for beginners like me. Keep up the great work!

 

[Amer]

Well, that's a bummer! I think the calculator, no matter what the short comings, can only add interest, functionality and value to the site. Particularly for beginners like me. Keep up the great work!

Yup!