Chick loss

[BigBlueHen53]

Can you post a pic of your setup?

 

[Acre4Me]

@LaFemmeKatia, sorry for the loss of chicks.

1. possible overheating. Chicks must be able to get away from the heat. How big is box, where isheat lamp positioned?

2. Did you see them eating and drinking regularly? We will take chicks when first brought home and dip their beaks into the water. Careful to not get them too deep or wet. The chick will put its head back and beak pointed up in order to swallow the water. Make sure they get a drink of water. We monitor to make sure they are all going to the waterer and successfully drinking.

3. Are you offering plain water (nothing added to it)?

4. Pine shavings are perfectly fine and safe. However, I personally use puppy pee pads for the first 3 days so the chicks only have water and food to eat and not shavings to try to eat. Also, I can see mobility of the chicks better and amount/color of poop. After 3 days they get shavings.

5. Pasty butt. It is common to have a chick or two with pasty butt. This is when the poop blocks the vent on the outside and the chick cannot poop anymore. They can die from this. I take the chick in palm, with their neck gently between my two fingers. This keeps them well supported and minimizes wriggling. Using warm water, I wash their vent area until poop is removed. Try to keep them as dry as possible otherwise. Immediately wrapped in paper towel to blot dry and keep them from squirming, then directly to the brooder and under heat. They can get pasty butt if they get dehydrated, so too hot or not drinking enough water contributes to this.

 

[Lilalienangel]

My lord for reals. Pine is not fine! Read the studies. I literally almost lost a chick that way. Everything else was on point but pine is NOT fine.

 

[Lilalienangel]

I'm not talking out of my butt people.. Bona fide research went into this. I can get pine shavings for free. I would never use it for anything but meat birds because they don't live long anyways.. I would never use it with chicks.
Exposure to pine dust can cause a wide range of symptoms, including:

• Shortness of breath
• Nasal irritation
• Eye irritation
• Throat irritation
• Flu-like symptoms
• Chronic bronchitis
• Wheezing
• Coughing
• Airflow obstruction
• Chest tightness
• Reduced lung function
• Contact dermatitis
• Asthma
• Rhinitis-like reactions with or without asthma

(from Whitehead et al., 1981; Pisaniello et al., 1991; Shamssain, M., 1992; Halpin et al., 1994; Hessel et al., 1995; Demers et al., 1997; The MAK-Collection for Occupational Health and Safety, 2013)
exposure-related airflow obstruction and respiratory symptoms are observed with both ‘allergenic’ and ‘nonallergenic’ wood dusts, including common species such as pine, spruce, and fir.
Paul Demers and Colleagues, 1997, p. 393

When abietic acid from pine wood is inhaled, it destroys the cells in the airway and lungs (Ayars et al., 1989). When human and rat alveolar epithelial cells, rat lungs, and tracheal tissues were exposed to abietic acid, the solution caused cell disintegration and sloughing.

Numerous studies show that both pine and cedar bedding drastically increase hepatic microsomal enzyme activities and are cytotoxic to the liver (e.g., Vesell, 1967; Cunliffe-Beamer, 1981; Törrönen et al., 1989; Connors et al., 1990; Potgieter et al., 1995; Pelkonen and Hänninen, 1997). Others have found that the chemicals in pine bedding also alter aspects of endocytosis (Buddaraju and Van Dyke, 2003).

Although our data do not qualify as a truly scientific experiment, there is enough evidence to suggest using caution… The fact that a large number of indoor house rabbits live in an environment of pine or cedar may account for the large number of deaths due to liver damage and anesthesia fatalities.

Marinell Harriman and Colleagues, 1989

The International Agency for Research on Cancer classifies pine dust as a carcinogen.

Several studies document that workers exposed to pine have a much higher rate of cancer, particularly cancer that affects the nasal passages and glottis (e.g., Hernberg et al., 1983; Voss et al., 1985; Boysen et al., 1986; Maier et al, 1992; see Demers et al., 1997 for a full review).

 

[Vickischics]

I have 6 pullets that are now laying. Then,12 days ago I bought 24 hour old two Polish chicks at TS. I learned so much reading the forums. If your using a plastic tub, you can use pine shavings, add it then allow to settle Before putting the chicks in. Otherwise, use puppy pads.
Chick stress from shipping is very common. Use Hydro-Hen 3 & 1. Give them a little bit on their beat and in a little lid in addition to fresh water. Read the directions carefully.
Heat lamp: CAUTION!!!
If using with a plastic bin, keep it high to keep your temp. The plastic holds heat and will Cook them!!
Make sure your chicks have an area to seek cooler air or find a "just right" spot. Use a large bin to provide this area.
I used rubber bands to make Kriss crosses on the lids for the water and chick crumbles plus I kept the crumbles moist.
They sleep a lot and fall forward to sleep and will just fall asleep where ever or when ever. Hence, the reason for the water to have the kris cross rubber bands across it. Check their butts for "Pastey Butt" The poop will dry on their little vent like a hard rock and block stool from coming out and the chick will die. You must soak it off and gently wipe it clean. Keep the Vent clear from stool. I use a cotton ball or Q tip to gently wipe it in a downward motion with tepid water. Then put them down. Try to remember, they were just hatched and shipped, put in a big container and people looking at them and perhaps handling them.
Watch them, give them quiet and allow them to rest in a safe, warm (not too hot) place. Handle them gently and give them time to adjust. Think about whatever you use, can cause Heat! Such as cardboard ect..
Good Luck! And read, read, read and Ask tons of questions.

 

[Katie386]

At our tractor supply store they told us the small fine pine shavings are bad so they are encouraging the use of flake pine shavings. I don’t know what else to use.

 

[Ridgerunner]

What could the problem be?

Really hard to say. That first one may have had a birth defect. Some are just not meant to make it. But as fast as that other one died I do not suspect a disease or parasite. They don't kill that fast. Did you look at the body to see if there were any wounds?

Heat can be dangerous but the chicks will tell you if that is a problem. If they are trying to get as far away from the heat as they can, lining the far wall and panting, they are too hot. If they are active and moving around they are not too hot. I'll assume that chick did not get trapped too far from the heat and got cold?

I once had a chick that did not learn to drink when I dipped its beak in the water or from watching the others drink. It stood around constantly giving a really plaintive peep. Just hearing it you knew something was wrong. I dipped its beak in the water again and a light bulb went off. It just about emptied the waterer. If they are not making that plaintive peep they are not that hungry or thirsty.

It's not the pine shavings. If you read that linked article (not a scientific study and not peer reviewed) you will see this statement.

Long-term exposure to pine can cause mild to severe illness in chickens, and possibly death.

Yours have not had long-term exposure. There are plenty of other statements in that article that clearly say pine shavings are not your problem. I encourage people to actually read that article. Even if you believe it, it proves pine shavings are not your problem.

A heart attack or stroke could cause a chick to die that quickly. But that would almost require you to have two out of four with a birth defect. The odds of that happening with chicks from Tractor Supply are pretty low.

It's not a blocked crop or gizzard. That's where they eat stuff that gets tangled up in the crop or gizzard and plugs them up. That is not a quick death, they slowly starve.

It doesn't sound like poisoning since it is not all of them. Sometimes feed or treats or water are tainted. Maybe you use a dangerous cleaning product and don't rinse it off well enough. I remember one post where someone was cleaning the waterer with bleach, a bird drank the bleach/water solution and died. I remember a case where someone's kids gave the chicks some tainted gerbil or hamster feed. Maybe the brooder is near a poisonous air supply, maybe a natural gas or propane appliance with a leak or fumes from the fire. Usually this affects all of them, not just one, but who knows?

Does a cat or especially a dog have access? Sometimes they play really rough with them if they can get to them. Or did one of your kids accidentally crush it?

From what you have described I don't see where you have done anything wrong or anything different than a lot of us do. If it happens again I'd think there is something wrong but right now I'd just think you are unlucky.

 

[diamondsilkies]

I have used pine shavings for years with absolutely no problems. I do prefer the large flake ones over the small flake ones, as they are less dusty, but that has more to do with the cut of wood than the type of wood. As @Ridgerunner pointed out, the chicks haven't been exposed to pine long enough for it to be the cause of death.

 

[BigBlueHen53]

I, too, have had chickens for many years, and have used pine shavings with no problems. I know lots of folks here do.

 

[LaFemmeKatia]

Did any of the chicks have Pasty butt?

Yes. They did. I cleaned their butts as recommended and I thought they would be okay.