Chocolate Serama Breeders - dun and blue can be included here as well

[smoothmule]

I wanted to bring together some of the breeders who are working on the Chocolate color in Serama's so we can share information, photo's, trade Serama's and hatching eggs etc. I wanted to include blue and dun because of the way many of these are being categorized as Chocolate and I figure it would be a good way for everyone to learn how to get these cool colors and how they can be properly identified. I prefer it not to be a place to discredit anyone but a place to learn. Photo's are encouraged and I'd love to see photo's of chick down, juvenile feathering and adult feathering. I plan to share some chicks with SCNA members who already have the color and could use mine but I have about a dozen eggs right now, 5 under one setting hen, 6 under another and some in the incubator. My hen is chocolate, rooster is blue wheaten and I understand that none of the chicks from this cross will be chocolate but the roosters will be split for chocolate and I will be keeping one to breed back to the hen until I buy a black rooster for her. I would also be interested in a split for chocolate or chocolate rooster and would trade chicks for one. The hens will not get a chocolate gene from this initial cross and will all be for sale.

Cathy

 

[smoothmule]

I think it should be important to know the difference between actual chocolate and dun. If you have a Serama it could be either chocolate or dun but it's hard enough to breed for a color with everyone using the wrong terminology. That said, I understand how hard it can be to look at a Serama and be able to say, hey that is chocolate or hey that's dun. I see a lot of them that just look nothing like what I expect chocolate to look like "BUT" it doesn't matter if it breeds like chocolate then the appearance may be because of other genes modifying the way it looks.

Those breeding the dun Serama's, cannot get the same results as breeding for chocolate. They are not chocolate and, in my opinion, should not be called chocolate. It shouldn't be that hard to discover the difference once they're bred but, again, Serama's will be Serama's.

Plus, there may be breeders out there trying to cross 2 "chocolates" but one is chocolate and one is dun so WOW, what do you do? Except enjoy the crazy colors. I prefer the crazy colors but I've set a goal to work on some real chocolates, solid ones that are good enough to show and to breed and set the color and type so others who want them can use their good black Serama's to make more. Got a lot of work ahead but I'm hoping to find a few others with the same goal to make it go a little easier, and more fun. Along the way, I expect to have a lot of extra's that don't make the cut but still carry or show the gene and they will be for sale.

Here is an outline of the way Chocolate breeds

The Chocolate gene is sex linked and Dun is not.

Chocolate cockerel + Chocolate hen = 100% Chocolate ****the finish line****

Chocolate cockerel + Black hen = all Chocolate hens & all Chocolate Split cockerels (Black in colour but carry the Chocolate gene)

Black cockerel + Chocolate hen = all Chocolate Split males & all Black hens ****This is where I am now*****

Chocolate Split Cockerel + Chocolate hen = 25% Chocolate hens, 25% Black hens, 25% Chocolate cockerels & 25% Chocolate split cockerels***My second generation******

Chocolate Split Cockerel + Black hen = 25% Chocolate hens, 25% Black hens, 25% Black cockerels & 25% Chocolate split cockerels ***I can take one of my split cockerels back to the black hen Bugsy *****

Chocolate Split which only appears in the Cockerels, they are Black in colour but carry the Chocolate gene

 

[key west chick]

Here was Nesmee as a chick. Now remember, these were someones culls, I just wanted to get a few. Someone thought she might be bbr with dun melanizer or something like that. I will try to get some up to date pictures tomorrow. Ignore the splash OEG. Nesmee's feathers are a chocolate brown, except down her throat. And the shafts are golden.

 

[austinhart123]

some chicks from the frosted flakes roo mated to the gold choc laced hen

 

[key west chick]

So whats the visual difference between chocolate and brown? Is a brown serama chocolate? What makes a chocolate, chocolate?

 

[smoothmule]

Keywest,
The best way I can put it, in my own words, is that chocolate is a sex linked color gene. That means they reliably reproduce a certain way when you breed a certain way (See above breeding chart). I know there are a lot of genes that can really modify (change) the way the color appears but it will still follow those rules when bred. If they don't, they're not really chocolate.

For instance, if you bred a chocolate looking hen to a black rooster and got any chocolate looking chicks, you didn't get lucky, that hen is not really chocolate. The rule states that breeding a black rooster to a chocolate hen, all the hens are black and the roosters are chocolate splits (black roosters that carry one copy of the gene) It's actually pretty simple and accurate when there are not a lot of other genes involved......and we're talking Serama here so of course there are, lol.

Dun has it's own set of rules and one difference that is notable is the way it is darker with one copy of the dun gene and lighter with 2 copies. It doesn't work that way with the chocolate gene. That said, I know someone may comment that they had a chocolate that was lighter or darker than the parents but the difference is it's true chocolate to true black and if either parent has "other" genes, those genes may affect the way chocolate appears to the eye. They are still genetically chocolate, but modified to appear lighter than the parent with a gene that dilutes like the blue gene or dun.

The fact that so many Serama's have so many of these genes makes it difficult but not impossible to figure out, although it could take a few generations to show you what they're made of. I hope that wasn't too technical.

In the end, Everyone has a right to make every color they want and I LOVE that too. I'll be mixing it up here too but I wanted a project and this has become that project. I think it's attainable with no outside help but I'd love to speed it up a notch if I can. Also, I think it's a good idea for anyone who is wanting a particular color to either decide that they don't care about the genetics as long as they like what they see or do as I'm doing to learn as much as I can and go for making a color as a standard that can be replicated consistently........then mixed up again, lol.

 

[smoothmule]

I started this thread to help breeders, including myself, learn more about the colors and the genetics behind them. I don't think anyone needs to know a lot about genetics to understand how to breed for sex linked chocolate (true chocolate color and not look a-likes). The Serama can be a bit more confusing with all of the color and pattern genes but that's why we're here, to learn.

I think it should be noted and remembered that there can be other combinations of colors and patterns that will mimic chocolate that are not chocolate and cannot be bred to produce chocolate. They're just as beautiful but may be impossible to reproduce when you can't tell what genes are there to make what you're seeing. Also, before paying for a chocolate, I think a breeder should educate themselves so they can make the best choices and not buy one based only on what they look like without knowing that there are some real chocolate genes there. If the reason they're buying is to breed and produce more of the same color, it can be quite disappointing and costly so buyers need to know what they want and at least a little bit about the color gene and sellers should be doing the best they can to make sure they know what they have before offering it for sale so everyone is satisfied.

There are some rules that have been listed here for how the chocolate gene works. Something to note is that chocolate dilutes black so if a Serama has any black feathers, they cannot be chocolate. Just looking chocolate does not make one chocolate. I've seen several that I would not consider chocolate at all but if they were bred and produced chocolate and followed the rules of how the chocolate gene worked, I would believe it. I do feel Chocolate can look different, there are many other colors and patterns that would change the way chocolate appears "BUT" if it doesn't produce as a chocolate should, it's not chocolate.

I think every individual has to decide if they're okay with a chocolate looking Serama or if they want a genetically true chocolate Serama. Personally, I love surprises but if I want something, I want the real thing so when I ever get to hatching chicks from my hen that I believe is chocolate, I'll still want to do some further breeding to prove it and I'll have a pictorial pedigree to document what I'm producing.

I would like this thread to be more than just photo's of Serama's with someone saying they look chocolate or there is chocolate in there somewhere. I'm a show-me type, I'd like to see parents and grandparents if possible and details about the breedings to illustrate they are following the rules of the chocolate gene. I think this is the only way we're going to learn how it all works and learn to determine which are true chocolates and which look chocolate but are not.

I understand that it's not the end of the world whether or not a Serama is really chocolate or not but if I want a true chocolate Serama, that's what I expect when I buy or produce one myself and this is in no way knocking anyones Serama, type before color! but lets work on learning to identify which are which. Juliette is a perfect example of hard work paying off with Serama's that are truly chocolate and breed correctly for chocolate. Dun and combinations which look dun or chocolate should be studied as well as these colors are as gorgeous as any but to reproduce them, you have to understand what combination of colors are present to even begin to produce more.

 

[Lorilyn Farms]

Anyone else have an opinion? I'm looking at an awful lot of birds on this thread that LOOK like they have black, but are being called chocolate. My birds have the same amount of dark that they have. And I know what buff looks like, I have an entire yard full of buff....The hen is DEFINITELY not buff, she has a grey/pink/mauve thing going on.

Someone called this bird a chocolate. I see a lot of black and gray with red leakage.

And you guys are calling these chocolates as well. Looks black to me.

My birds taIL FEATHERS ARE NOT BLACK, THEY ARE DARK GRAY, same color I see all over this thread.

 

[muffi]

I don't know of a color breeding chart, but if you want to learn more about Serama colors, I recommend The Serama Colours book, for an introduction. For further reading, I recommend the more comprehensive chicken color genetics book listed at the same website.

The simple answer to your question of blue roo over choc hen is 50% black chicks, 50% blue chicks. All males will be choc carriers and all females will not be. This holds true under the following assumptions:

-The rooster really has the autosomal, incompletely dominant blue gene, Bl. I have seen Seramas that appear to be a dark "midnight" blue but are actually matte black. If you get no blue chicks, this assumption is probably wrong.

-The hen really has the sex-linked recessive chocolate gene, choc. While not confirmed, there may be Seramas that appear chocolate because of dun or some other non-choc gene. If you get any chocolate colored chicks, this assumption could be wrong (see also next assumption). If you get any chicks that look like a blue splash or lavender color, they are likely dun + blue, which would indicate the hen is dun and not chocolate.

-The rooster does not carry a copy of the choc gene. If he did, then 50% of the chicks would exhibit the effects of the choc gene (assuming the hen also has the choc gene; if she doesn't, then only female chicks will express chocolate, no males will). Of the choc-expressing chicks, half will be chocolate and half will be chocolate + blue, which should look like a shade of mauve (should be darker than dun + blue would be).

 

[muffi]

...I've been having a hard time hatching my chocolate Seramas for the last couple of months. Mostly all are fertile but die right before or at lockdown

I can't tell you how much bad luck I have had trying to breed, hatch and raise chocolate Seramas in Massachusetts! Terrible hatch rate was just one of the problems. Last summer I averaged about a 10% hatch rate once we had to turn on our central air conditioning. And almost all of the chicks I did manage to hatch were males.

Well, I had heard an old wive's tale that more pullets tend to hatch in the heat of August. If too high an incubation temperature selectively kills off male chicks, perhaps too low a temperature was causing females not to hatch for me. I really have no idea if this is a real phenomenon, but it made me try an experiment after my first batch of Serama eggs this year failed to hatch.

I increased the temperature to 101-101.5F and controlled the humidity around 60% (whereas before I used to get my best hatch rates of Ameraucana eggs at 99.5F and 35% humidity). Now I get 80-90% hatch rates. Or at least I have for three consecutive batches. Seramas developed in Malaysia, so it makes sense to me that they might need more tropical conditions during incubation. Just make sure you don't put any other breeds in with them. They will hatch too early with unabsorbed yolks.