Combining colors

[AquaEyes]

Well, I guess I'll have to look batty until Connerhills confirms otherwise. Connerhills says he's talked to people who have seen pictures of the color-combined birds of this breeder. Do some homework and figure out someone who bred two birds of different colors together and arrived at something different (and the information is in this thread, regarding the origin of "Peach") and you'll have the name of the breeder. I figured I'd go to the source of "color combining" and ask his opinion via email. I feel I've danced on the line of respecting anonymity more than I should have, but there you have it.



~Christopher

 

[deerman]

yes reason I wonder about the peach, is because it came from purple line and cameo line, but not having cameo could never test that. Same with the darker midnight never had them......so maybe a midnight purple is were the new color came in ?????

So is midnight a color or just a darker factor ???? don't have any, never bred them those that have should know.

I could see that happening if its just a darken factor ,

 

[destinduck]

O K I know they are what they are and like you hopefully they will only get better with someone that has that "purple passion". My hats of to ALL you breeders. Because from everything posted Its extremely hard to intensify colors let alone the time it takes just to raise them. Im getting my first java greens this year to raise because not only has my best bird buddy here been harping on me for years to raise them and carry the torch on these beautiful birds He swears they dont make near the noise as the IB's do.( I live in the city) I told him if they are coming back to him like an IB male did when I raised one awhile back. Although I WAS warned in all fairness

 

[bandbaustin]

Wowsers, could violeta be purple midnight?

 

[deerman]

Quote:

they are sexlink like purple, but only saw pics look darker than a purple.

If so would still take 4 to 6 years to put midnight on a purple....George Conners is the one that start the Violeta.

 

[AquaEyes]

Quote:
What are generally termed "dark factors" in other birds are typically incomplete-dominants. Having one gene gives one dose of "dark" and having two genes gives a double dose of "dark." Birds with one dark factor are not as dark in appearance as birds with two dark factors. Other "factors" are also incomplete-dominants. An example is Andalusian blue in chickens. Those with one gene are "blue" and those with two are "splash." Midnight is a color caused by a recessive mutation, and is visual only when there are two Midnight genes present, thus it is not a "factor."

Peafowl have only one family of pigment -- melanin. Color in them is caused by a combination of pigment and feather structure. Alter either (or both) and the "color" presented will be different. If one "color" is caused by an alteration in the feather structure (causing the light to be refracted differently, and thus we perceive a different "color"), and another "color" is caused by a change (increase or decrease) in the amount of pigment, then they most certainly can be combined, as the genes are doing two different things (one might increase the amount of pigment, and another alters feather structure to change light refraction). I don't understand how, despite this, people here are claiming that it's impossible for peafowl to be homozygous for two different color mutations at the same time, and thus look different than either color independently and different from regular IB. I can understand someone saying he hasn't seen it, but to just say "impossible" is not logical.

People here seem to be hung up on the term "color" and I think it is believed that somehow the Purple gene causes a purple pigment, as opposed to a blue pigment. This is completely incorrect. Purple affects the amount of pigment and/or alters the feather structure. There is no blue or purple or green or cameo or peach or opal or charcoal "pigment" in peafowl. Melanin is the pigment in ALL. All color in peafowl is the result of an interaction between amount and distribution of melanin and feather structure. Mutations affect this interaction simply by altering pigment distribution and/or feather structure. I'm in my fourth college course of genetics (crop genetics and livestock breeding at Cornell, and behavior genetics and human genetics at University at Buffalo), so I'm rather well-versed in understanding how genes interact.

I do hope I have something in my email box tomorrow that can put an end to this.

:-/

 

[deerman]

Quote:
What are generally termed "dark factors" in other birds are typically incomplete-dominants. Having one gene gives one dose of "dark" and having two genes gives a double dose of "dark." Birds with one dark factor are not as dark in appearance as birds with two dark factors. Other "factors" are also incomplete-dominants. An example is Andalusian blue in chickens. Those with one gene are "blue" and those with two are "splash." Midnight is a color caused by a recessive mutation, and is visual only when there are two Midnight genes present, thus it is not a "factor."

People here seem to be hung up on the term "color" and I think it is believed that somehow the Purple gene causes a purple pigment, as opposed to a blue pigment. This is completely incorrect. Purple affects the amount of pigment and/or alters the feather structure. There is no blue or purple or green or cameo or peach or opal or charcoal "pigment" in peafowl. Melanin is the pigment in ALL. All color in peafowl is the result of an interaction between amount and distribution of melanin and feather structure. Mutations affect this interaction simply by altering pigment distribution and/or feather structure. I'm in my fourth college course of genetics (crop genetics and livestock breeding at Cornell, and behavior genetics and human genetics at University at Buffalo), so I'm rather well-versed in understanding how genes interact.

I do hope I have something in my email box tomorrow that can put an end to this.

:-/

Ok didn't know if midnight could have been a factor, yes on the colors but most get the names from the color showing in the peacocks neck, except silver pied, which come from the hens silver back.

 

[AquaEyes]

I don't know if Sonja's Violete is a combination color or a separate mutation. There is no information I could find on either the Connerhills website or another place that discussed the color's origin. However, connerhills and I have been PM'ing a bit since I sent him the email from the breeder who has been working on various color combinations (and yes, they were visual, NOT splits, and they looked different from anything before), and I asked him to please confirm that my source is genuine, that he knows people who have seen either the birds or pictures, and that I'm not crazy for asserting that it IS possible. Perhaps we can also ask him how the first Sonja's Violete came about. Personally, I think peafowl are amazing, and even enjoy their mating calls (they're all over the Bronx Zoo, and I'd make it a point to go there during mating season to hear them). I'd love to have some free-ranging on my property (when I have some....hehe), and especially would love playing around with different genetic combinations. I think many of you pea-fans have similar reasons for liking them. So I hope we can all learn together.



~Chris

 

[deerman]

Chris , I for one am not saying it isn't possible......just have not seen any, I do know birds that are split Blackshoulder will show. I can pick out birds split blackshoulder.

NOTE this purple peacock shoulder, small area of brown, that because he is split blackshoulder, in a blue that area would be black on a split bs , but not on a barred wing, non split.

 

[connerhills]

Around 15 yrs ago I lived in OKC. and I drove to a persons home to buy a few peafowl. He had a male that was multi color. It was more of less half bronze and half pied (I think that was the color) and he was split pretty much down the center with half of his head a different color than the other side of his head and his trane was the same way. Not all a solid color but mixed with a pied pattern, with the trane more of a solid color on half of it. I brought the bird to Mo. with me but he died. He never was a real healthy bird and never bred but lived a couple of years here. I have photos of him someplace and when I find them I will try to post for all to see. With this said I will not rule out Chris and his ideas on breeding . Kinda like boggy said I think some things just happen. That is why we see more mutation. It takes a close look at the birds and the ability to recognize something that is different in them.. Most mutations have happened not made, but they were made by something or someone ,somehow. Brad Legg once told me that one of the best matings or birds to have would be ones with the most genitic background or gene carriers and know how to use them. It helps you when you have raised thousands of peachicks and be able to reconize the little differences in them. I was never that good. There are new colors to be had and they are out there, they can be just a little different or a lot different.. Think about it and look hard... Keep working on the red factor.. why not.?? I had person tell me that a blacksoulder male I sold him had red on his wings, I told him I was sorry and he can bring him back but he said he would just keep him. Dont rule out anything. connerhills