Crested Cream Legbar Genotype vs. Phenotype

[TheTropix]

The first CL hen I had also had some dark tips on her chest. I have 7 or 8 of her daughters and 1 son. Most of the daughters have moderate to heavy amounts of dark tips, 1 is clean and one is almost clean..you have to look hard. But there is one that has some spangling like a Jubilee Orpington pattern on her chest and a little on her wings. On her hackles, they almost alternate golder and lighter. Interesting, but wrong. LOL She also has the whitish 'spots/specks'. Their mama has been replaced with a nice pullet in her place. The first one had some great attributes, though. Out of 15 or so chicks, only 1 was a boy. She was a good layer.. her eggs were blueish-turquoisey color. I'm keeping the 2 girls with the clearest breasts (almost 5 mos), and now growing some chicks from the 2nd pullet (7 mos) That one little rooster (3 mos) looks like he might have 6 points on his comb.
With what I've been reading, and discussing, they should go back to their father - who is my best rooster (and only sire) right now.
There is 0 chance of a backdoor boyfriend, lol. Every pen is completely enclosed.



This one has the 2nd cleanest chest from the first hen. Wouldn't
you know she pretty much has no crest. lol

 

[ChicKat]

Good info. Thanks.

do you know what the threshold of scoring is for the qualifying meet to get APA acceptance??

 

[KPenley]

Nope, but I'll find out

 

[HaplessRunner]

My first CCLs came from earlier stock that originated from GF. I have since acquired a pullet and a hatching eggs from which I got another pullet from a breeder in NC who was moving to Maine. These pullets have black crests - not cream or gold - but black. The older pullet's crest will be more prominent than earlier GF lines. Likewise, their breasts are not salmon rather they are more brownish with some underlayment of of black feathers.

So the questions become:

1. Could this change in color have resulted from crossing lines before I got them? These pullets are 2.5 and 1.5 months of age, respectively.
2. If not from crossed lines, why is this "non-standard" color making an appearance? I have seen pictures of other "dark" CCL pullets on line.

While the older chick received positive comments for "how cold" the brown tones in her down were, this has become a signal for an excessively dark pullet.

Thoughts and comments are welcome!

 

[KPenley]

1&2. I think that until we know more it is safe to assume that many of the problems we're seeing are a result of crossed lines, or strains, as articles Kathy has been posting refer to them. From what I've read...When you have a breed as complex as the Cream Legbar, and this goes for other breeds like RIR too, breeders spend much time and attention breeding down or out negative recessive traits (ie mottling). Stabilizing just means that your birds produce known results...not necessarily that your birds bred to someone else's birds produce known results. And then, when two lines are crossed it brings up many of these traits that were suppressed for so long. It can take 5+ years just to get back to the quality of an original parent. There are many breeds that went into the creation of the Cream Legbar, and even more that were introduced in the 1980's and 90's to give "vigor" to the breed. Like many of us now, they thought that bringing new blood into the lines would improve them. They were wrong, of course, and it took some breeders decades to get the Cream Legbar looking close to what D. Applegarth had bred them back to before the crosses. I think this is one of the reasons that UK breeders are so protective of the Cream Legbar. They don't want to see the bird go extinct or degrade to the point where it takes so long to produce a recognizable one again.
I know that Araucanas were used then in an attempt to darken the blue egg color, so perhaps the dark crest came from a black or white (hiding black) bird. Also could have come from a white Leghorn or Star (again hiding black). Totally a guess though.
On the dark crests, would you please keep an eye on them? I have an older pullet (about 7 months) who started with dark black colors and is now growing in dark slate grays with her winter feathers (although her chest is a nice deep salmon, so perhaps your girls will change as well). They are more clearly barred as well. Likewise some of my golden crested girls have had their crest change to gray and cream. I'd like to know if others see this same change.

 

[DeannaA]

If this is not the right place to ask this question, let me know. I have 2 roosters, 11 weeks. They look very different from each other. All of my pullets look very simular. Can they still grow up to be the right colors, if not which is more desirable? The red one looked like a pullet when it hatched so I'm guessing that one. They are both pretty.

 

[chicken pickin]

While both are very pretty, neither one is a good choice for breeding Cream Legars. The color on both the roosters is not correct (Im thinking they are mix breeds having genetics from other breeds in their past).They are entirely too dark with the over all body color with the deep reddish rown. I personally wouldnt use them for breeding and get better stock to start with. Do you have pics of your pullets? And pics of them all as day olds?

here is a pic of my CL rooster when he was roughly 11 weeks old for color comparison.

 

[KPenley]

Deanna, I am so sorry but I think someone might have sold you a different breed by accident. Cream Legbars are very distinctive as chicks and juveniles. Your darker boy with the light neck and hackles looks somewhat like a silver sussex.
Chicks boy/girl

Juveniles Boy/Girl/Girl

Grown ups hen/cock

 

[DeannaA]

These are 4 of my pullets. I have 1 more but she's too fast. She looks just like these ones. I saw the breeders. They were beautiful and looked like the pictures I've seen when I have been researching. I didn't have any interest in the legbars until I saw them in person when I was picking up a Marans. She is beautiful as well. The guy I bought them from has been great. Any chance they are still from good stock but just off colors? I know I still can't breed them. I know not everyone will be perfect. Are my pullets breedable? They are so sweet. If not, I wanted to cross some legbars with langshans anyway, so they will still be used. I just won't breed legbars. And they will always be nice eggs to have.

 

[KPenley]

Your girls are 100% better than the boys

. If I were you I would be on the lookout for a CLB boy that is all gray with barring. There always seem to be ones to spare on craigslist, etc. If you're ever going to be in SC, I can try to plan to have one for you.

The point behind Legbars was to have an autosexing breed that clearly showed the difference between pullets and cockerels from hatch. So the offcolors we talk about are gold in the hackles instead of cream, or too much autosomal red, when the birds are fully grown. Not males that look like females.
I don't know much about crosses, but I have never seen a 100% Legbar male that looks like yours. Even my 1/2 Legbar 1/2 Silkies look like female Legbars with too much fluff. I would have to agree that your boys are either crosses or some Ameraucana or Easter Egger eggs got mixed up in the bator. Accidents do happen. They are beautiful though!