Crested Cream Legbar Genotype vs. Phenotype

[KPenley]

I am anxiously awaiting hatching eggs! So, it may be a while before I will be eye-balling breeding stock. But, I am very interested in improving the breed.

Best wishes on your hatch and welcome to Cream Legbars! I am so excited that another South Carolinian is getting them! If you ever need a hand feel free to let me know.

 

[ChicKat]

This is a post by theDragonLady in CSU - post 495.


"Ah, so ! When you inbreed you MUST keep only the correct birds...NO MATTER WHO THEY'RE PARENTS ARE.You have flushed out a recessive gene for purple. GET RID OF IT. Only by strong culling will you make your Genotype ( what you can't see) resemble your Phenotype ( What you CAN see.). Keeping inbred birds that do not show the characteristics you want just sets you back into muddy waters. No fun in that mud puddle....... ".


Although it is referring to a different breed, the advice is probably good for us to be aware of.

 

[dretd]

This is a post by theDragonLady in CSU - post 495.


"Ah, so ! When you inbreed you MUST keep only the correct birds...NO MATTER WHO THEY'RE PARENTS ARE.You have flushed out a recessive gene for purple. GET RID OF IT. Only by strong culling will you make your Genotype ( what you can't see) resemble your Phenotype ( What you CAN see.). Keeping inbred birds that do not show the characteristics you want just sets you back into muddy waters. No fun in that mud puddle....... ".


Although it is referring to a different breed, the advice is probably good for us to be aware of.

Thank you for posting this! Its really good advice and means quite a lot coming from such a well-known breeder. I always thought of inbreeding as shaking the tree and seeing what comes out, It allows you to uncover hidden traits, get rid of the cra....I mean undesirable attributes.... and move forward with best fruit.

 

[ChicKat]

Thank you for posting this! Its really good advice and means quite a lot coming from such a well-known breeder. I always thought of inbreeding as shaking the tree and seeing what comes out, It allows you to uncover hidden traits, get rid of the cra....I mean undesirable attributes.... and move forward with best fruit.

The more I'm reading about inbreeding the more I see how it is used. There are a couple of new posts in the Clubhouse on it.... Where as before I thought it was undesirable...now I am seriously considering it.

Even posted one a bit ago where he says that if you introduce "new blood" you should then breed back those offspring to another one in your line to keep your line. -- Not that we quite have lines yet as the CL is so new.... These folks talk about going back 100's of years. Still - I know that they like them all to look like rubber-stamps of each other... Even that picture in the Club handbook of the Cream Legbars from page 12 "Cream Legbars on the Berkshire Downs" they don't look like cookie cutter/rubber stamp birds...so if someone did inbreeding then they would get more consistency.

In the registered cattle business we make a joke - if it is successful it is 'line breeding' and if it is unsuccessful it is 'inbreeding'. Also (maybe this is the place it was...prepotency is a collection of heterozygous ETA homozygous genes - either dominant or even recessive so that the offspring have close resemblance to the parent bird...or hopefully even better. -

 

[dretd]

The more I'm reading about inbreeding the more I see how it is used. There are a couple of new posts in the Clubhouse on it.... Where as before I thought it was undesirable...now I am seriously considering it.

Even posted one a bit ago where he says that if you introduce "new blood" you should then breed back those offspring to another one in your line to keep your line. -- Not that we quite have lines yet as the CL is so new.... These folks talk about going back 100's of years. Still - I know that they like them all to look like rubber-stamps of each other... Even that picture in the Club handbook of the Cream Legbars from page 12 "Cream Legbars on the Berkshire Downs" they don't look like cookie cutter/rubber stamp birds...so if someone did inbreeding then they would get more consistency.

In the registered cattle business we make a joke - if it is successful it is 'line breeding' and if it is unsuccessful it is 'inbreeding'. Also (maybe this is the place it was...prepotency is a collection of heterozygous ETA homozygous genes - either dominant or even recessive so that the offspring have close resemblance to the parent bird...or hopefully even better. -

I think it is a tool that can be useful but it can also stir the pot and if you are not prepared to hatch a lot and cull heavily...it may be more of a bane than a boon.

Funny, I always thought of inbreeding as the degree of familial relations dad-daughter/mother-son/bro-sis and I think it has been referred to as 'tight line breeding' when successful. I guess each breeder has their own spin on things!

So as far as showing goes, birds that adhere closest to the SOP and thus appear more cookie-cutter like are not necessarily being raised for utility, and therein lies the problem with Cream Legbars. They are a utility breed and if raised with that at the #1 goal then they will look less uniform. Work-horse vs Show-horse. In some ways it reminds me of SQ vs HQ breeds. I have heard more than once a breeder refer to HQ birds as not even being the breed of record because they are so off-type. Yet I had no trouble identifying my HQ Barred Rock as a BR and she was an amazing layer.

I hope that in 20 years we don't have elite CL breeders looking down their noses all superior-like to those that love their Cream Legbars but are more focused on egg color/production and autosexing than looks. I had an ABCA Border Collie (herding) and she was awesome. When she passed I got an AKC Border Collie (beauty/agility) and she has many, many health problems, behavior problems and is what my hubby refers to (with apologies) as a Blonde Border Collie but she is very beautiful. I learned my lesson on that one and will forever more breed as close as possible to the SOP from the birds that are highly productive and are easy to sex--that is the first cut.

 

[normanack]

. . . . . I hope that in 20 years we don't have elite CL breeders looking down their noses all superior-like to those that love their Cream Legbars but are more focused on egg color/production and autosexing than looks. I had an ABCA Border Collie (herding) and she was awesome. When she passed I got an AKC Border Collie (beauty/agility) and she has many, many health problems, behavior problems and is what my hubby refers to (with apologies) as a Blonde Border Collie but she is very beautiful. I learned my lesson on that one and will forever more breed as close as possible to the SOP from the birds that are highly productive and are easy to sex--that is the first cut. . . . . .

Different people, different goals -- I hope and think there's room for everyone.

 

[blackbirds13]

Quote:
I'd hate to see this also as I can't see why it's not possible to breed for both but I'm a novice and inexperienced and have to wonder what makes this breed of this animal any different than any other that has this same problem. I have a Yorkie I had fixed even though I'd love to breed her for puppies of my own, not even for show, but was too worried about her ability to reproduce safely given her mother died giving birth to the litter after her. Everyone's got their priorities but I'm not one to say that mine has to be theirs or theirs has to be mine or either is better than the other but if there is a standard and someone's birds more closely match it than my own... well I give Kudos to them... with no mal content or ill feelings. It takes work to do that just as it does for the utility side as I'm sure they'll be those looking down their noses on the other end.... and pride in ones flock does not necessarily mean disdain for anyone else's even if it is perceived to be so on the other end. I almost feel as this is all happening as we speak. To each his own. If folks decide to breed for show and look down on the utility breeders... well, such is life is it not. Some Marans breeders breed for superior egg color and others for show-quality. Not to say that one cannot be inclusive of the other but I've no problem with anyone feeling their birds are more superior to mine for any reason. I'm breeding towards my own goals regardless.

 

[ChicKat]

Interesting too - if the economic value gets written into the SOP, then that becomes part of the breed. Walt did tell us something to the effect of "don't loose the original intent". --

I doubt that anyone raising CLs would stand for loosing autosexing... I'm wondering if a CL really can be the 'all around chicken' - That's kind of my view. Quirky enough for show, productive enough for eggs, and easy separation of males for table birds if one wants to grow them for awhile. I do think a lot of people want to see something different at a show.

By cookie cutter, I kind of meant - how to describe it here - I can tell which cattle were raised on this ranch - and which ones we purchased from elsewhere. (especially in the females which we seldom purchase) - it's the look in their eyes and the faces.... So If you decide to winter-over let's say 3-roosters and 9-10 hens every year, eventually after about 4-6 years, I think that your own flock would get a certain look. Right now - there is a big variety in the appearance of CLs. One thing coming out now is an appearance of dark edges on the female breast. Someone showed me this link to an eBay listing --

"Check this hen out.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/15-Crested-Cream-Legbar-Legbars-Fertile-Hatching-Eggs-Rare-Imported-/151160957114?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2331e528ba#ht_498wt_1137"

Hen has some nice things going for it - and a lot of work to get it to my vision of a standard CL hen. (Thanks for the link Sherry!) I like her comb and wattles, and nice round shape, maybe good tail feathers...wonder if she has a tent in back or is more 'pinched' like a lot of CLs are...but the feathering - leaves me puzzled, and I am seeing more and more of this, that I didn't see last year. But if the picture were without color - it could be that hen has good type. Not much cream in the hackle feathers, If all your hens looked like that hen in type, except with correct coloration that would be the uniformity that I am trying to convey. I think I sort of understand now why Walt was saying something to the effect that Cream Legbars are all over the map. Last year I may have said something like 'that's not a CL' - To me they are a recognizable breed - but there is within the breed a huge variation in crests, neck hackle patterns, length of shank ...etc. etc.

Raising chickens for show and/or type (ETA meant productivity) -- I think that both can be done... Kind of gets back to the idea that double mating would produce better show quality individuals... with a breed like ours that has such sexual dimorphism, someone wanting to concentrate on showing may find that path very attractive. For someone who puts utility and economy above showing and showing is a sideline - then it would be unattractive. The latter may never get to the big time - in showing - but that doesn't mean that they cannot show their birds IMO.

Last thought. As I read more about showing - I'm seeing how much 'grooming' plays a part. So if you are on your way to your first show, and you have done everything you can to make your best CL look as good as it can, and as you take it out to put in the show cage, a Major feather breaks Like two big tail sickle featers - should you scratch your entry because you know it won't win?? And what if you just traveled 6-7 hours to get there? Or should you exhibit your bird to have the judge evaluate it and you can learn from that experience? (just an example) - Or if you had a rooster who was fabulous in the coloration you are raising, had so many qualities that you thought were nearly meeting the SOP, Yellow legs, the right weight, loves to strike a pose... and then his comb got frostbitten.... he will never win a show - because he is very imperfect...right? (I actually don't know what happens when a comb gets frost bitten - but I think that the point dies and falls off -- anyone can enlighten me?) It would look kind of strange...but what if you wanted to know how the other qualities stacked up? Because the damaged comb isn't genetic - he won't pass it along to his chicks... Would judges be insulted that you entered a bird with obvious flaws? I think some people would say - you have enough birds with you that if you had a broken feather you would just put another bird in the show. Or you would have so many roosters equivalent to your frost bitten comb guy that you would use the one who isn't frost bitten... The idea of rubber-stamp cookie-cutter flock. BTW do you put Vaseline on the comb to protect from frost-bite and how much do you put on -- and do you reapply every night to the rooster? I guess you would have to..... here the problem is more heat related than cold related...and we're back in the 80's tomorrow...but it has gotten down to 16 around here.

 

[dretd]

Interesting too - if the economic value gets written into the SOP, then that becomes part of the breed. Walt did tell us something to the effect of "don't loose the original intent". --

One thing coming out now is an appearance of dark edges on the female breast. Someone showed me this link to an eBay listing --

"Check this hen out.
http://www.ebay.com/itm/15-Crested-Cream-Legbar-Legbars-Fertile-Hatching-Eggs-Rare-Imported-/151160957114?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item2331e528ba#ht_498wt_1137"

Hen has some nice things going for it - and a lot of work to get it to my vision of a standard CL hen. (Thanks for the link Sherry!) I like her comb and wattles, and nice round shape, maybe good tail feathers...wonder if she has a tent in back or is more 'pinched' like a lot of CLs are...but the feathering - leaves me puzzled, and I am seeing more and more of this, that I didn't see last year. But if the picture were without color - it could be that hen has good type. Not much cream in the hackle feathers, If all your hens looked like that hen in type, except with correct coloration that would be the uniformity that I am trying to convey. I think I sort of understand now why Walt was saying something to the effect that Cream Legbars are all over the map. Last year I may have said something like 'that's not a CL' - To me they are a recognizable breed - but there is within the breed a huge variation in crests, neck hackle patterns, length of shank ...etc. etc.

- Or if you had a rooster who was fabulous in the coloration you are raising, had so many qualities that you thought were nearly meeting the SOP, Yellow legs, the right weight, loves to strike a pose... and then his comb got frostbitten.... he will never win a show - because he is very imperfect...right? (I actually don't know what happens when a comb gets frost bitten - but I think that the point dies and falls off -- anyone can enlighten me?) ....... BTW do you put Vaseline on the comb to protect from frost-bite and how much do you put on -- and do you reapply every night to the rooster? I guess you would have to..... here the problem is more heat related than cold related...and we're back in the 80's tomorrow...but it has gotten down to 16 around here.

I'm thinking that we need to have a mission statement on breeding Cream Legbars that would include the utility aspects so that future breeders will know the origin and 'spirit' of the SOP is not just to have a pretty face.

I agree the link to the hen...she has some really good points going for her on type and her head. Her color is also odd for several reasons. The most interesting thing about the ad is that they say they have 11 hens but of the 2 pictures they have the hens are identical or they are the same hen. Why only post a single hen if you have 11. Makes me think she is the best example. Still she might be a good match for someone if they had stock that needed to improve in certain areas.

As for frostbite. It gets pretty cold here in the winter. Like -29F winter before last although typically it is just sustained -15. Below -20 is more atypical. The cold is a problem, but the bigger problem is wet-cold. The Vaseline on the comb will allow a moisture barrier thus helping to stave off frostbite. Rub it on so that is isn't gloppy and apply as often as necessary. Probably once a week for sustained cold. If they get frostbite, the frostbitten part will turn black and then remain black. Eventually it will shrivel and fall off. The result could look like a shorter blunted point or if the whole comb has tips frozen it could look pretty mangled (never happened to me but have seen photos). Along with the Vaseline, I have a 250 watt ceramic bulb meant for reptiles in the hen house (in one of those bell shop lamps) that is plugged into an on at 20F off at 30F plug. It is enough to take the edge off and I haven't had problems with frostbite since I started doing that. We have a dry cold so it may not be as effective in different wet-cold climates. If any snow or water drips onto the comb and its allowed to freeze, you will get frostbite. No clue how they would judge off for something like that?

 

[KPenley]

Eggs and Autosexing are in the SOP

Pick A Chick is actually close to me. I'll have to drop by one of their events some time. I'm seeing a lot of tipping and mottling in the girls this year. I kept one girl of Lucy's (with great grays in her body and the least amount of mottling) because I want to test mate her to her father (trying to create roos who will pass on that straight comb no matter what), but all the rest went to a farm home this weekend, who just wanted pretty egg layers. Some of the patterns I've seen on the internet the last month or so have been very close to the patterns you'd see on a Cream Brabanter...so close in fact that I have wondered if someone crossed them at a point or if they have a similar background.

Ok onto the questions about Roos...from the "Cutting for Defects" section of the APA SOP (page 31)
All feather deductions are PER FEATHER
Primaries and Secondaries missing: 1-2 point deduction (if wrong color), 1/2 -1 point deduction (if correct color), broken feathers not removed: 1/2 to 1 point deduction
Tail feathers correct color missing: 1/2 point deduction, wrong color: 1 point deduction
Sickles missing: 1- 1 1/2 points deduction
Pinched Tail: 1/2 - 2 points deduction
Split tail in young birds 2-2 1/2 points deduction, DQ in H and C
Tail Feather
Frostbite in the comb: 1/2 to 1 point deduction for "frozen"

So if everything else was fine, a couple missing feathers and a frozen comb are not the end of the world. Bob and Walt have often said that you need 90+ points to win at shows.