Crested Cream Legbar Genotype vs. Phenotype

[dretd]

Quote: ChicKat--Finally got around to reading the article by Tim--very nice article and thank you for the link. When I linked over a floating message appeared asking me to sign in--the strange part is that Tim's text was in English but the box was en Francaise. Weird.

I did pick up on this: "Green eggs are green because a bird produces a blue shell that is covered with brown pigments. If the surface of green egg is rubbed, the brown pigments can be removed exposing a blue shell. Green egg shell producers generate both types of pigments; biliverdin-IX which is a part of the shell and protoporphyrin-IX that covers the egg’s exterior surface. The hue of a green egg is dependent upon the amount of brown pigment that is added to the surface of the egg."
-- Which is not what I demonstrate with my interior vs exterior egg colors in the photo above.

Is it possible that Punnett identified any color that was blue or greenish-blue a 'blue' color in his writings since he assumed that 'real' green was the blue+brown overlay and the Cream Legbar's color, while visibly may appear greenish, is uniform through the shell and so he assumed that it is a variant color of the 'blue' egg gene. Could it be that again we have have been arguing over visual color differences and Punnett was talking genetically blue egg gene in all its variations? In my mind it is just like the debates we have over plumage color (whats the difference between very light butter and pale butter etc) when--as I have and will maintain--Punnett is describing the genetic color of the plumage in the SOP. The bird is Cream and Grey becasue he is genetically ig/ig (called cream) and grey not an articulation of an actual color descriptor.

 

[ChicKat]

Can't believe that I wrote this brilliant reply and then the satellite went down and it was all lost on the way up to outer space.

If the eggshell is identical inside and outside, then it cannot be bloom IMO. The blue-green or green-blue is throughout the egg shell. I believe perhaps the palisade layer may contain some of the brown pigment to cause blue to look greener, as I understand that layer supports the porous part of the eggshell -- or the blues have a variation and Punnett is talking only about the O gene.

For me the greater question would be how to achieve the bluer rather than the greener blue eggs. if you look at the Ameraucana and Araucana egg charts there is a wide variety of coloration - and most likely those eggshells are like the Cream Legbar eggshell and saturated throughout the calcium carbonate - with the same color. I will ask Tim if there is any view he would care to share on this.

http://www.feathersite.com/Poultry/CGA/Arau/BRKArauEgg.html

Regarding Punnett not having a visible cream... I seriously doubt that since it was the visible coloration that first led him to explore this color as he said something to the effect "like no other color seen" - thus, it must have started visually. Looking backwards with genetic knowledge we now have that was provided by Punnett and subsequent researchers, I suppose you could conclude that he was toying with genetics rather than visuals, but for me it is the opposite conclusion. He started with the unusual appearance of the color and delved into the whys subsequently. :O)

 

[normanack]

. . . . For me the greater question would be how to achieve the bluer rather than the greener blue eggs. if you look at the Ameraucana and Araucana egg charts there is a wide variety of coloration - and most likely those eggshells are like the Cream Legbar eggshell and saturated throughout the calcium carbonate - with the same color. I will ask Tim if there is any view he would care to share on this. . . .


. . . . Regarding Punnett not having a visible cream... I seriously doubt that since it was the visible coloration that first led him to explore this color as he said something to the effect "like no other color seen" - thus, it must have started visually. Looking backwards with genetic knowledge we now have that was provided by Punnett and subsequent researchers, I suppose you could conclude that he was toying with genetics rather than visuals, but for me it is the opposite conclusion. He started with the unusual appearance of the color and delved into the whys subsequently. :O)

Re: how to achieve bluer rather than greener blue eggs -- it would be awesome if you could talk to Tim about this -- and if we could include his thoughts in the newsletter (upcoming or future).

Re: Cream being "like no other color seen" -- I so wish Punnett had gone on in far more detail! I had come to the tentative conclusion that cream and silver (white) were genetically different but visually the same -- this quotation is making me re-evaluate.

 

[ChicKat]

Re: how to achieve bluer rather than greener blue eggs -- it would be awesome if you could talk to Tim about this -- and if we could include his thoughts in the newsletter (upcoming or future).

Re: Cream being "like no other color seen" -- I so wish Punnett had gone on in far more detail! I had come to the tentative conclusion that cream and silver (white) were genetically different but visually the same -- this quotation is making me re-evaluate.

LOL you and a large number of others. I even went over the line for awhile. I suppose it behooves me to find the exact wording....

http://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/BF02986632#page-1

"Thirteen years ago I recorded some experiments dealing with blue egg colour derived from certain hens imported from Chili (Punnett 1933). In the course of doing these experiments an unknown type of plumage colour made it's appearance and it is with this that the following brief account deals. "
It may be in other writings...but perhaps going back to 1933 is a good foundation.

 

[chicken pickin]

Im not sure if its already been mentioned on one of the many CL threads but since you are talking about egg color I thought I would ask. On the Araucana egg color chart and even on the OAC color chart? What are the ideal blue/blue-green colors that we are aiming to have our hens lay or even the color we hope to achieve.

 

[enola]

Purebred Araucanas lay blue eggs, every hen may lay slightly different shades of blue, just like not all brown eggs are not exactly the same shade. But they will be blue.

Just like "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", Blue is in the eye of the beholder. I bought eggs from a breeder of purebred Ameraucanas (on this site, no names mentioned) that were NOT blue. To my eyes they were "greenish ". (The breeder swore the eggs were blue.)

 

[ChicKat]

Im not sure if its already been mentioned on one of the many CL threads but since you are talking about egg color I thought I would ask. On the Araucana egg color chart and even on the OAC color chart? What are the ideal blue/blue-green colors that we are aiming to have our hens lay or even the color we hope to achieve.

I think that OAC213, OAC214and OAC235, OAC256 - would be heavenly--- Mine are around OAC179 or so, depends on the light.... So for me, for now the ideal goal would be OAC214

 

[ChicKat]

Purebred Araucanas lay blue eggs, every hen may lay slightly different shades of blue, just like not all brown eggs are not exactly the same shade. But they will be blue.

Just like "Beauty is in the eye of the beholder", Blue is in the eye of the beholder. I bought eggs from a breeder of purebred Ameraucanas (on this site, no names mentioned) that were NOT blue. To my eyes they were "greenish ". (The breeder swore the eggs were blue.)

Once I bought some eggs that were supposed to be blue -- off eBay...and they were green. Someone posted a color perception test on the computer once...
http://www.xrite.com/online-color-test-challenge

Here's another color test
http://petapixel.com/2012/03/26/test-your-perception-of-color-with-this-browse-based-game/

 

[chicken pickin]

I think that OAC213, OAC214and OAC235, OAC256 - would be heavenly--- Mine are around OAC179 or so, depends on the light.... So for me, for now the ideal goal would be OAC214

Thanks!

 

[normanack]

And -- not to be a broken record or anything (sorry), blue and green are culturally the least distinct colors, with some cultures calling them the same color. Not the best reference, but here's one:
Distinction of Blue and Green in Various Languages