Crested Cream Legbar Genotype vs. Phenotype

[tadkerson]

"The problem I find is that there is a lot that is not known and written about a lot of the genes we may be looking at like Mh and Di to include the ig gene. In much of the research I have been doing the authors will specifically state that such and such is not an area of much research and specifically that ig is not a genetic area that encompasses a large amount of breeds or varieties or knowledgeable research. There appear to be more than single forms of modifiers like Di (diluters) and Mh (Mahogany) that still need research. Reeder says that the term Autosomal Red that is so commonly used is a combination of both Autosomal Phemelanin (Aph)and Mahogany expression and that how they are expressed is reliant on the presence of diluters and the suppression or not of the Aph, and Aph can have a strong expression if dilute is not present and the double barring also causes a diluting effect and ig expression seems to have a variant from what I read and am told.... so many questions in my head about this."


Reeder does not present any quantitative or qualitative data and statistical analysis to support his position concerning his ideas. I see this time and time again on this forum. There is no Aph because he has no data to support his position. There is autosomal red because respected and published researchers have documented or considered the plumage phenotype- Hutt and Jeffy

I have seen no data from Reeder that would support the conjecture that autosomal red is an expression of two seperate genes- the hypothetical Aph and the documented Mh.

Reeder also throws around the dilute gene- once again no evidence of the dilute gene is mentioned in the genotypes of birds but from one study by Brumbaugh and Hollander. Reeder presents no data to support his supposition.

Let me give you one example of claims he makes. In his book An introduction to color forms of the domestic fowl he indicates that the cubalaya (black breasted red or BBR ) has a plumage variety genotype of homozygous wheaten, gold, autosomal pheomelainin, mahogany and melanotic. If he had done his research he would have never suggested the genotype.

The wheaten is ok, the gold is ok but the autosomal pheomelanin is not in the literaure, mahogany not mentioned in the literature and neither is melanotic in connection with a similar phenotype.

Melanotic and mahogany are not a part of the genotype of the cubalaya

wheaten males that carry melanotic are a more or less solid black color- see Moore JW, Smyth JR Jr., 1971. Melanotic: Key to a Phenotypic Enigma in the Fowl. J Hered. 62: 215-219

if BBR cubalaya carried mahogany they would have red spangles or blotches of red in their black breast see Brumbaugh JA, Hollander WF, 1966. Genetics of buff and related color patterns in the fowl. Poultry Science. 45:451-457. and Smyth, J.R.Jr., 1990. Genetics of Plumage, Skin and Eye Pigmentation in Chickens, ed. R.D. Crawford, pp. 123. Amsterdam:Elsevier

females are a cinnamon wheaten color because of a gene called Dk or dark - Kimball, E., 1960. Genetics of Wheaten Plumage in the Fowl. Poultry Sci. 39:768-774

Before a person presents information they need to do the research and present any data to support any notions they may have.


see also the information below about cream gene go to post 60 cream gene information

https://www.backyardchickens.com/t/847679/building-and-working-with-columbian-patterned-birds/50

Tim

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Very interesting thread there Tim. So in your work with autosomal red, what exactly did the job in successfully blocking all of that gene in those test breedings that you share pictures of? Is the autosomal red gene still there but successfully surpressed or has it been "bred out"? We still at not completely sure that this is our problem gene with CLS but it is as good a place to start as anywhere.

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
I agree with Tim here, I just dont feel the work reeder has done on the autosomla gene(I would say its a poligenic trait) is documented enough, he says that wildtype hens lacking autosomal red would lack salmon breast, yet we hardly see gold based wildtype hens lacking salmon breast(we do see pale salmon breasts) the ones Ive seen can Attributed to other factors, not the simple lack of a single autosomal gene

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
breeding autosomal out can be problematic, most show quality Silver Duckwing birds have one or more pheomelanin diluters also.. I think its safe to say some CL lines are red enhanced, not by mahogany(very strong and would have a faint restricting effect on males breasts) but by the multigenic autosomal red

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Then are you saying the autosomal red gene are important to the genetic makeup of CLS? Why are our birds too colorful then overall? Are we missing a different dilution or suppression gene?

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
no, I am saying some of your CL(american CL) appear to be red enhanced, even when the cream gene is inthere, the cream gene is not as powerful diluter as one may think

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Ah thank you. Any ideas how we go about fixing it?

 

[nicalandia]

Quote:
without introducing outside breeds, I would say just breed from the less enhanced birds, I have seen this before, I think steen started with enhanced brids and now has good cream colored birds with that some chestnutt that is Desirable

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Thanks that's where I'm at too. But I can't seem to get a boy that equals his dad in coloring and I'm not sure where my hangup is. I'm guessing something in the female genetics so I'm growing out and tracking 7 female chicks each with slightly different down. Can't link to my pics on my phone but I will do it on the computer later.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Here's my boy:






Almost all of his sons start showing chestnut way too early- by 8-10 weeks. They are noticeably too colorful by 12-15 weeks. I have one hopeful growing out that is about 7 weeks old but I've sworn off photographing my developing boys as I always lose the ones I'm favoring once I share pictures...

Here is the range of girl down colors I'm getting:




Each of the seven has a different colored leg band and I have individual poses of each. I hope to track them with weekly photos. There is a very slight chance one or two might be gold (but a cream carrier) as I do have 1 gold hen left in my flock (out of 10 hens). But dad is definitely cream.

My entire flock is based on a young trio plus some of their mothers and aunts.