Crested Cream Legbar Genotype vs. Phenotype

[tadkerson]

Very interesting thread there Tim. So in your work with autosomal red, what exactly did the job in successfully blocking all of that gene in those test breedings that you share pictures of? Is the autosomal red gene still there but successfully surpressed or has it been "bred out"? We still at not completely sure that this is our problem gene with CLS but it is as good a place to start as anywhere.

I can not say exactly what happened but I can make an educated guess. I would say that the genes for the autosomal red were bred out of the bird. What is the problem you are wanting to solve?

Tim

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Here's my boy:




SEE THE HEN IN THE BACKGROUND BEHIND THE ROO? She is cream but has reddish/goldish coloring up around her face. Several of my hens have it. I wonder if this is an indicator for one of the genes that is causing my color problems in my offspring.


Almost all of his sons start showing chestnut way too early- by 8-10 weeks. They are noticeably too colorful by 12-15 weeks. I have one hopeful growing out that is about 7 weeks old but I've sworn off photographing my developing boys as I always lose the ones I'm favoring once I share pictures...

Here is the range of girl down colors I'm getting:




Each of the seven has a different colored leg band and I have individual poses of each. I hope to track them with weekly photos. There is a very slight chance one or two might be gold (but a cream carrier) as I do have 1 gold hen left in my flock (out of 10 hens). But dad is definitely cream.

My entire flock is based on a young trio plus some of their mothers and aunts.

This is a typical boy from my flock. This guy is about 4 months old. I took the photo this morning.


Here's another one, a little younger. Lost him after I did the photos. I was going to keep him to maturity as he had less color than most at this age.

 

[nicalandia]

Here's my boy:






Almost all of his sons start showing chestnut way too early- by 8-10 weeks. They are noticeably too colorful by 12-15 weeks. I have one hopeful growing out that is about 7 weeks old but I've sworn off photographing my developing boys as I always lose the ones I'm favoring once I share pictures...

Here is the range of girl down colors I'm getting:




Each of the seven has a different colored leg band and I have individual poses of each. I hope to track them with weekly photos. There is a very slight chance one or two might be gold (but a cream carrier) as I do have 1 gold hen left in my flock (out of 10 hens). But dad is definitely cream.

My entire flock is based on a young trio plus some of their mothers and aunts.

he has all the need it genetics to produce males like him, its not a fluke, But the female is not helping here

 

[nicalandia]

I can not say exactly what happened but I can make an educated guess. I would say that the genes for the autosomal red were bred out of the bird. What is the problem you are wanting to solve?

Tim

some CL males show to be more red enhanced than others, so breeding them out would be his problem

 

[dretd]

Here's my boy:

Almost all of his sons start showing chestnut way too early- by 8-10 weeks. They are noticeably too colorful by 12-15 weeks.

Hi Rinda. I just wanted to clarify your statement above to make sure I understand completely:
This is Hugger, the Cream (ig/ig) roo you are using as the foundation roo for you flock. You think he is colored well (I am saying this because I think he is awesome) but you think his male get are too colorful.

See, when I read someone says a roo is too colorful, I default to that being a euphemism for he is a non-Cream (gold colored/is Ig etc) Cream Legbar.

I am guessing that you think the 'too colorful' boys simply have more chestnut than you like but you think they are ig/ig. Is that correct? I totally respect your not wanting to post pictures and bring them to the attention of the depredation gods, so a few more questions in lieu of pictures:

Do these boys that have too much chestnut have it in places where it is not allowed in the current proposed SOP (allowed in crest, shoulder ,back and wings: fronts and bows) such as in the hackle or saddle? I am trying to see if this is a personal preference on your part where you are aiming for no chestnut (nothing wrong with that, of course), or if the chestnut is showing up where it shouldn't!

I suspect you are correct that it is something in the hen's genetics that is crossing over to her sons but that begs the question: if this is from the hen, does she have any tells (we can see with our eyes) in her plumage that we can use to identify her as the source for the incorrect chestnut?

 

[nicalandia]

I suspect you are correct that it is something in the hen's genetics that is crossing over to her sons but that begs the question: if this is from the hen, does she have any tells (we can see with our eyes) in her plumage that we can use to identify her as the source for the incorrect chestnut?

seeing how autosomal red is anything but recessive, one would say that the females are at foult here, the males color is not a fluke, he is what I would called Cream Crele, dark Breast/Tail Barring and light cream barred on top, many birds that have the correct cream color lack this Dark well outlined difference between the top and bottom of the birds

 

[dretd]

Quote: The lightest of the two gold girls reposted below, has the most of this lacing you are mentioning, the other has some and then the darkest/possible cream girl (top picture below) has practically zero lacing. If the gold laced girl were Cream, I think that the gold lacing on her body would turn cream and the overall effect would be to make her more silvery/grey looking. The SOP does not mention lacing so I do not want to carry this trait forward even if it makes her offspring a more correct body color. I wonder if this lacing, when expressed in the males will make the breast more uneven and messy in appearance--I suspect so?

The black breast tipping was in both of the gold hens with the lacing and I wonder if it related to the lacing--perhaps not directly but from whatever source introduced the lacing also introduced genetics from the source bird used in breeding. I know there has been speculation that this black tipping is due to melanizers (and it could be but I am now having doubts), however the dark girl on top with no lacing and the really richly colored salmon breast has the lightest cream-colored edging to her hackles, the darkest body, the least distinct barring (which we had been theorizing as due to increased melanizers) yet her dark salmon breast had zero black tips and the least amount of shafting. So if her dark color is due to an increased amount of melanizers, these melanizers are not the ones that are causing the tipping or she would have had black in her breast.

Quote:

Its funny, and its probably a camera and lighting thing, but when I look at your Cream girls I am still seeing quite a lot of what I would call taupe.

I think that in the last photo I am seeing that the feather edges on the body and back are edged in grey or cream--it this real or just another optical illusion? Of the trio I have, the one with the most gold around her head also has the most lacing of gold on the edges of her body feathers. I wonder if the amount of gold in the crest, head and neck could be an indication of the relative amount of lacing with the golder ones with the most, and the ones having no lacing being straight up grey around the head? It is in my case but my sample size is too small to be significant.

Its so hard to pick up these minor color changes in photos, so this will have to be something that all the breeders will have to look at individually and then report on.

 

[lonnyandrinda]

Hi Rinda. I just wanted to clarify your statement above to make sure I understand completely:
This is Hugger, the Cream (ig/ig) roo you are using as the foundation roo for you flock. You think he is colored well (I am saying this because I think he is awesome) but you think his male get are too colorful.

See, when I read someone says a roo is too colorful, I default to that being a euphemism for he is a non-Cream (gold colored/is Ig etc) Cream Legbar.

I am guessing that you think the 'too colorful' boys simply have more chestnut than you like but you think they are ig/ig. Is that correct? I totally respect your not wanting to post pictures and bring them to the attention of the depredation gods, so a few more questions in lieu of pictures:

Do these boys that have too much chestnut have it in places where it is not allowed in the current proposed SOP (allowed in crest, shoulder ,back and wings: fronts and bows) such as in the hackle or saddle? I am trying to see if this is a personal preference on your part where you are aiming for no chestnut (nothing wrong with that, of course), or if the chestnut is showing up where it shouldn't!

I suspect you are correct that it is something in the hen's genetics that is crossing over to her sons but that begs the question: if this is from the hen, does she have any tells (we can see with our eyes) in her plumage that we can use to identify her as the source for the incorrect chestnut?

Dretd- yes I completely misspoke, as I have moved past the cream/gold issue in my flock I am referring to the "too much chestnut" across the back and shoulders. Like this young guy. Most who have this amount of color when young turn out VERY dark across the back and shoulders when older.


Now this younger guy is not the least chestnut I have seen at this age but he was much better. I wanted to keep him. Again this bird died a few days after the photo so I was not able to grow him out.

seeing how autosomal red is anything but recessive, one would say that the females are at foult here, the males color is not a fluke, he is what I would called Cream Crele, dark Breast/Tail Barring and light cream barred on top, many birds that have the correct cream color lack this Dark well outlined difference between the top and bottom of the birds

Yes I am suspecting that female genetics are what are causing my problems. For instance I see some cream hackled hens who have reddish/goldish tint up near their face, like the hen behind Hugger. (Click the photo to enlarge)



I do not KNOW but I wonder if this is of genetic significance with corresponding chestnut in the males. I am growing out a bunch of female chicks banded with different down tints. I will post them here too for reference. Once they are grown I will single mate them back to their dad and see what we get. That's a long way off hopefully they all make it to maturity. hatched 1/30/14. I have 9 cream hens and 1 gold hen in with Hugger so there is a small chance one or two will be heterozygous for the cream gene.

Orange, White, Green, Blue, Brown, Pink, Black


Same but reversed: Black, Pink, Brown, Blue, Green, White, Orange

White


Pink


Orange


Green


Brown


Blue


Black


ETA there were 15 females (1 white) and 5 males in this hatch. All males had a cinnamon tint to them. I will not be growing them out as I have grown out enough to know cinnamon always equals too much chestnut.

 

[blackbirds13]

Its funny, and its probably a camera and lighting thing, but when I look at your Cream girls I am still seeing quite a lot of what I would call taupe.

I think that in the last photo I am seeing that the feather edges on the body and back are edged in grey or cream--it this real or just another optical illusion? Of the trio I have, the one with the most gold around her head also has the most lacing of gold on the edges of her body feathers. I wonder if the amount of gold in the crest, head and neck could be an indication of the relative amount of lacing with the golder ones with the most, and the ones having no lacing being straight up grey around the head? It is in my case but my sample size is too small to be significant.

Its so hard to pick up these minor color changes in photos, so this will have to be something that all the breeders will have to look at individually and then report on.

I'm not sure what the taupe is? Are you saying an overall body tone? Then that's probably the camera or screen. That some of them are not a total body of gray? If you mean there are spots that are more brown toned than gray, then yes. That is what I was eluding to. The bodies are gray but some have some areas of warmer more chestnut spots on some of the feathers but it's very varied and inconsistent and not all over the body but just in small patches.The edges are the same gray tone as the feather minus the slightly darker indistinct barring but in the gold birds that edge is brown not gray and it is all over. I am not sure if the color around the face is an indicator as I have females with no facial color and still have some areas of warm tones. I have some that are just gray all over and lacking the warmer spots but have some color around the face. All of them are cream ig/ig so I'm leaning towards some sort of melanizer. I am reading B. Reeders recent Blog post (January 2014) on Autosomal Pheomelanin. I enjoy reading the articles he writes for Exhibition Poultry and his books. They are in a language I can relate to and it gives me food for thought that I can understand an is in line with my breeding goals.

Here are some photos of some of my girls and one that has no real color on her face. I have a range. Once I get ready to rearrange the pens and set up for this years breeding I will give them all a once over and make notations and take photos. I am very excited for this year. I think I have finally decided on which males I want to keep.

 

[KPenley]

Congratulations M! It had to be a hard choice! Best wishes for a great season