Difference between Heritage and Standard

[gjensen]

To comment on my rant, I apologize as well. After some thinking it does seam important to some that their birds are destinguished from birds that are not good represenatives of their breed. I guess that my point was more about the over use than what I post turned into. I still think that it fits the producer better than the breeder. I don't think that there is anything wrong with recently created breeds though. There has never been anything wrong with improvement. Ofcourse considering what your definition of improvement is. I will agree that the older breeds are in more need of being preserved. I like them all myself.
To the original post, the best way to answer your question is to suggest that you decide what you want. Decide how you intend to manage the birds you raise. Decide what you think fits the system the best. Then find the best examples of the breed that you can find. Best being determined by what you are looking for in the bird. We all have different preferences and management styles. Just find the best that you can find.

 

[Ridgerunner]

I agree with Saladin's first post in this thread. I think that one post said it better than any of the others. But as you can easily see, no one can agree on the definitions on Standard, Heritage, or Production. I could add my take on what they mean to me, but as much fun as it would be to stir other people up, I don't think it would add anything positive to this conversation. I'll behave myself a bit this morning. Not totally, but a bit.

For your stated goals, you do have many different ways you could go. Not all hatcheries are the same and not all breeders are the same, so I'll generalize a bit on the hatcheries. With a major hatchery, you have a pretty good idea what you will get. There are exceptions, but you generally get a chicken that looks a lot like the breed is supposed to. It depends on the ability and goals of the person choosing their breeding chickens, but they tend to follow the SOP. With their pen breeding methods so they can mass produce the eggs they need to hatch 80,000 to 100,000 chicks a week, they are not going to produce show quality chickens, no matter how good the person choosing the breeders is or how tightly he follows the SOP. From your original post, I believe you understand the differences in strains within the breeds. For the hatcheries that hatch their own, whether they keep the layers themselves or get eggs from certain special breeders that provide hatching eggs, each hatchery in essence has its own strain. What qualities that strain has depend on the goals and skills of the person selecting the birds that are allowed to breed. I know I'm repeating myself, but I think that is an important point that is often lost.

Hatchery birds do tend to lay pretty well. They come from a commercial operation where people try to enhance profit so they can take care of their families. Some may breed specifically for egg production, but many do not. However, since it is a commercial for profit operation, if they determine (and they can) which hens are not being productive, they will remove that hen from the laying flock so they don't spend money on a hen that is eating food and not producing anything to sell. If you do that over a few generations, you tend to get chickens that lay pretty well. It's not a nefarious underhanded plot to take over the world, just something that occurs, whether intended or not. And I'd think generally, it is intended. I do similar things in my flock.

Since they are a commercial flock, the breeding birds in most hatcheries may not be chosen for large size. The larger the chicken, in general, the less efficiently it converts feed to eggs. It does not make sense to breed a less efficient bird in a commercial flock. I don't know how many hatcheries actually take this into consideration, but many have people with advanced degrees in chickens from major universities working in their operation. If I were in their position, I think I'd consider this. But this paragraph is mostly my personal speculation. I really don't know how many, if any, take this into consideration.

So from most major hatcheries, you are probably going to get a chicken that pretty much has the pattern and colors of the breed, pretty much has the general shape of the breed though this can vary a lot, probably lays a bit better than the breed is known to, and probably does not reach the size that some chickens of that breed can.

From a breeder, I am not going to even generalize. That purely depends on the goals of the breeder and how good he/she is. Some breed for show quality with egg laying, reasonably rapid growth, or anything else you may be interested in as not important whatsoever. How many points on the comb would be more important than egg laying ability. Some breed for all the traits the breed should have and still try to breed birds that meet the show quality standards. Some specifically breed for long productive lives. Some don't. Some get hatchery birds, don't even own a copy of the SOP, and advertise purebred birds.

With chicken genetics, if you do not specifically choose your breeders each generation to maintain and enhance the traits you want, they will quickly lose those traits. Even the best of breeders hatch a whole lot of chicks that do not meet their standards. It is a difficult never-ending process.

If you can find a breeder that is breeding for goals that are compatible with yours, you will get better birds for you than hatchery birds. But unless you learn how to select your breeders to maintain and enhance those traits, the quality of your flock will drop. You can get hatchery birds and over time develop your own strain with the traits you want. If you can find a breeder that has already done a lot of that preliminary selection process for you, you start out way ahead. But he keys are finding that breeder that is doing what you want, then learning and working to maintain those traits.

In general, I would not pay too much attention to the classifications you mentioned, Standard, Heritage, or Production. I think you will be much better off discussing specific traits with a breeder rather than using terms that may mean different things to each of you. That said, I would be leery of "production" birds. Again, it can mean different things to different people, but one meaning can be the breeds that have been developed for commercial egg laying, the Dekalb, ISA Browns, and such. These will not really meet your stated goals. They normally have a lot of leghorn in them, which means small carcasses without much meat. They have been selectively bred to produce a lot of large eggs in a short time. They can have medical problems and can burn out. They are specifically bred for commercial operations and often do not do real well in a backyard flock. Just something to be aware of.

Good luck with your goals and the adventure. And don't be put off by some of the discussions of some people. When you are passionate about something, you can get passionate in your discussions. I think it is great to see how passionate some people get. It means they really care.

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
It is contradictory. I know the Orloff was formerly accepted. Were the others? Maybe that's the disconnect.

There was never a Orloff or a Russian Orloff in the APA Standard of Perfection. The breed that you are referring to was the Russian and if I remember correctly there is/ was a difference two most common being Comb and Size.


Chris

 

[catdaddyfro]

Quote:
Well there ya go

the breeds you've mentioned will do just fine for you, I'm sure. Order you some RIR's and BRs (min.of 25 though) from anyone of the major hatcheries that are posted on here frequently (they all are pretty much equal in quality) and you'll have some great egg-layers and you can process the cockerels at 12 -16 weeks and have a fairly meaty carcass without starting to get stringy and tough. The pullets will probly lay more eggs than you'll need so you can peddle them or give them away to others and they should withstand your Nevada winters pretty well(with adequate housing and facilities). Both breeds were developed in the New England states and thrived very well in the COLD/SNOWY winters there for lotsa' years.

If/when you get moved out to your farm if you want to raise up some birds strictly for meat, order you a passle of the Cornish-X broilers and feed them(the recommended % feed) process them around 8 weeks and you'll have enough meat to last for quite some time.

If you decide you want something besides general/production type egg-layers. Look around on here and elsewhere, find what you like and inquire with the breeder(s) about them and go for it.

happy farming

Jeff

 

[ajlynco]

I want to thank all of you for your impassioned debate and input. I love it! It's representitive of what Americans are all about, we can agree to disagree, and I respect your opinions immensely. When I found BYC I knew I could get the expertise needed to start my flock. I believe my questions have been answered. In the beginning I'm going for the eggs, to supply my family and a couple of friends. After we move I'll hatch some of my own eggs and grow my flock. It's then that I'll add the meat production aspect to my little hendom. I'll probably get a nice strong bloodlined roo and let them do what comes naturally. I'm not going to show my birds but I don't want mutts and the quirky traits that may come with them. After reading hundreds of posts on BYC I really feel comfortable with RIR's and BR's for the winters here in Reno. I'm just trying to be a little more self-sufficient and, with the help of all you guys, I have a great start. Thanks.

 

[catdaddyfro]

Quote:
Sounds as if you've got a good plan there. Good luck,
Jeff

 

[ajlynco]

Catdaddyfro-Where's Vernon Parish...Louisiana?

 

[Chris09]

Heritage by ALBC's definition is just a fancy name dubbed to older slow growing large fowl breeds that meet APA Standard of Perfection.
Is it the correct term? No.

I look at it this way, Breeds bred to produce large amounts of milk or eggs, gain weight quickly, or yield particular types of meat within confined facilities are Industrial Agriculture Livestock or Industrial Livestock. A good example of this would be chicken purchased from the topical hatchery, there main goal is to either produce large amounts eggs or in the case of the Cornish cross produce a large amount carcass meat in the shortlist time possible.
Heritage breeds are generally better adapted to withstand disease and survive in harsh environmental conditions, and their bodies can be better suited to living on pasture whether it be Bantam or Large Fowl.

Now I also think that the Heritage breeds of poultry should be sub-divided as to ages, a very good example of this would be one that saladin used in one of his topics.

American Heritage Breeds;

• Ancient -
•• Asil, Dorkings, Malays, Old English (Large Fowl), Nankins, Pyncheons

• Old -
•• Creves, LaFleche, Houdan, Java, Polish, Red Caps, Shamo, Sussex, Rhode Island Red

• Modern -
•• Cubalaya, New Hampshire, Delaware, Holland

Chris

 

[catdaddyfro]

Quote:
You got it The Great State of Louisiana where the state bird is a Crawfish,

oh no that's right it's a crawfish eater a Cajun 'er (Brown Pelican)

Just foolin' around we're sort like that down here.

Jeff

 

[AquaEyes]

My take on the OP's original question is not whether the breed is Heritage or Standard, but what type of strain should be selected. Breeders selecting to meet a breed standard may not necessarily be also selecting for the original production qualities (eggs and/or meat) that appeared in the breed -- it is possible to have a show-winning bird that doesn't meet the requirements of those who raised the same breed 100 years ago. It's also possible for a breeder to like a particular breed for its production traits, and select based on those traits, while allowing some cosmetic faults according to the breed standard to slip in -- number of points on a comb, depth of color, distinct pattern, etc. Perhaps the OP is thinking that those breeders are maintaining "heritage strains" of particular breeds rather than "show strains." And hatcheries will select birds that churn out more birds, likely forsaking other traits.

I think the best way for the OP to find birds to match his/her requirements would be to seek a breeder who is selecting for similar traits. Envision what you want from your flock, and find someone who is getting that (or something close) from his/her flock, and buy some stock. So first look for breeders of the breeds you're interested in. Then contact the breeder and ask questions about the birds, such as "about how many eggs do you get per hen per year?" and "how large are your birds at maturity?" and "how old are they when they reach X weight?" and "what is your system of raising them?" and find the flocks that most closely mirror what you want.

From the OP's perspective, whether the breed itself is regarded as Heritage or Standard, and the definitions of those terms, are pretty irrelevant.