Dominique Thread!

[wsmith]

But way back when, until in the 1880s, Dominiques had either rose OR single combs. Barred rocks owe much of their development to the Dominiques. Even in "pure" Dominique strains, the occasional single comb shows up. While the single combed birds cannot be shown (single combs are a disqualification), they are indications of the recessive gene, and not necessarily from crosses, though that is also a possibility in some lines.

 

[Chris09]

But way back when, until in the 1880s, Dominiques had either rose OR single combs. Barred rocks owe much of their development to the Dominiques. Even in "pure" Dominique strains, the occasional single comb shows up. While the single combed birds cannot be shown (single combs are a disqualification), they are indications of the recessive gene, and not necessarily from crosses, though that is also a possibility in some lines.

The Plymouth Barred Rock has a Dominique fowl in its background BUT it wasn't the American Dominique. The Single Comb Dominique used in the breeding of the Barred Rock was most likely a Dom/ Dominique Game Fowl or even a Dominique /Barred Leghorn. We have to remember that with exception to the Rose Comb "American" Dominique the term Dominique refers to a color pattern and not a breed.

http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Dominique_Games.html

Yes there is a slight chance of getting a Single Comb out of a true "American" Rose Comb Dominique but they should be culled and not used in a breeding program.

Chris

 

[Sumatra503]

Thank you, that was rather my thinking, but wasn't entirely sure about it.

 

[centrarchid]

The Plymouth Barred Rock has a Dominique fowl in its background BUT it wasn't the American Dominique. The Single Comb Dominique used in the breeding of the Barred Rock was most likely a Dom/ Dominique Game Fowl or even a Dominique /Barred Leghorn. We have to remember that with exception to the Rose Comb "American" Dominique the term Dominique refers to a color pattern and not a breed.

http://www.dominiquechicken.com/Dominique_Games.html

Yes there is a slight chance of getting a Single Comb out of a true "American" Rose Comb Dominique but they should be culled and not used in a breeding program.

Chris

Chris,

When did the term "American Dominique" come into use? I have read some of same concerning developement of the barred Plymouth Rock where a dominique game or dominique leghorn supplied the barring gene but neither seems a logical starting point when end point was the much more robust barred Plymouth Rock and a bird closer to the deried product, namely the direct predecessor of todays American Dominique was already present and abundant. This especially so when discerning what would be called American Dominique and barred Plymouth Rock were initially treated as one breed and comb was the first character used to distinguish them.

 

[Chris09]

The term "American" Dominique has been around for some time, the American Standard of Perfection even uses it when describing the history of the Barred Plymouth Rock.

"The Dominique male used was not the American or Rose Comb Dominique, but rather a Single Combed, hawk-colored fowl commonly found in that locality."

I believe that since the term "Dominique" was already used to describe a pattern and or a type of gamefowl they just started calling the breed the American Dominique and over time they dropped the American part of the name. Somewhat like how the true name for the Rhode Island Reds is just simply Reds and the Rhode Island part of the name is simply the place of origin.

IMO the ASoP should use the name American Dominique instead of just Dominique since the term Dominique is still used to describe a pattern on fowl.


Chris

 

[WallTenters]

I agree with Chris on that point - I also think the SOP should say "American Dominique". But that's a matter of personal preference and something that has been debated among breeders forever back and probably forever forward since the breed was known. Really, anytime we write it as Dominique (not just dominique - note capitalization) we are referring to the breed, but that's splitting hairs. Anyway..

As far as the Dominique or American Dominique being used in the breeding of the barred Plymouth Rocks, I believe the history lesson the standard is giving us is that it was not a rose combed fowl but a single combed one used. Okay, fine. But at the time the BPR was being created there was little to no distinction between the rose comb, single comb, dominique Leghorn, dominique Game Fowl and the bird we know as the American Dominique. What someone would call a Dominique in one county would be called a barred Leghorn in another - unless those folks happened to be well versed enough to realize the difference in ear lobe and egg color. Many of these birds probably got crossed together, then culled out by the best breeders, to finally find what we know today as the American Dominique. To say they were only comprised of Java, Hamburg... stock is impossible to honestly state. If you saw a cuckoo, rose comb, yellow-legged, red-lobed rooster today with incredible Dominique type and color, would you not call it a Dominique, even if you did not know what stock it came from? I am NOT saying that such a bird would be put in the breeding pen with out some testing, but what I am saying is that our poultry breeding forefathers were selecting for the best traits - not the specific comb, long before the APA was around. That is why the Dominique that is familiar to us - the upright, medium size dual purpose bird (with rose or single comb) was so popular long before the standard was written.

So, after a much longer than I intended post, I don't know that any of us know for sure that it was not simply a single combed Dominique used for the BPR.

And many of the best Dominique breeders to ever live have kept and bred single combed birds. No, you cannot show them, and if you have more than say 5/100 chicks with SC you need to correct it, but many of the great breeders would keep SC hens noticing more vigor in their male offspring. Only recently have we learned there is scientific fact to this - the rose/walnut genes reduce sperm (mobility?) so a Rr male will have better fertility than his RR counterpart, all else being equal.

 

[wsmith]

Well said.

 

[Chris09]

Over the years there has been a lot of Dominique fowl both by name and pattern, and any one of them could have been used in the making of the Barred Rock and the American Dominique and it is possible that the same fowl could have been use in the making of both breeds.
There were a few of these Dominique fowl around the New England States at the time that the Barred Rock was being created but the one that keep coming to mind is the Dominique American Gamefowl.

Chris

 

[WallTenters]

But Chris many would say the the Dominique American Game and the American Dominique were once interchangeable. At least that is my understanding from the description at the time. In fact, look at dominique game fowl today and compare them to the Dominique or even the bantams. Some of the bantam Dominiques (and the LF) would benefit from some influence of a more alert posture, longer tail and tighter feathering that the gamefowl have taken to the other end of the scale. Our American Dominique is like an American bird bred by Mediterranean lovers and game bird fighters! All coming together it is a beautiful breed, but it would be nice to go back and see just what the old Doms looked like in those early days and how different they were from province to province.

 

[Chris09]

But Chris many would say the the Dominique American Game and the American Dominique were once interchangeable. At least that is my understanding from the description at the time. In fact, look at dominique game fowl today and compare them to the Dominique or even the bantams. Some of the bantam Dominiques (and the LF) would benefit from some influence of a more alert posture, longer tail and tighter feathering that the gamefowl have taken to the other end of the scale. Our American Dominique is like an American bird bred by Mediterranean lovers and game bird fighters! All coming together it is a beautiful breed, but it would be nice to go back and see just what the old Doms looked like in those early days and how different they were from province to province.

What is in Red I agree with and is what I have been saying for some time now.
As far as American Dominique and Dominique American Game being once interchangeable I don't think they were, now they could have been very closely related at one time.
Example being that the American Dominique could have been the off spring between the Dom American Game and a breed x.


Chris