Fact or Fiction? "Caine" and Poultry

[QueenMisha]

Been lurking on this thread since it was posted and doing a little research myself, since I've always been told it's toxic or semi toxic and I'd hate to be spreading misinformation. Here's what I've been able to dig up:

"Avian Pain Management - Joanna Paul Murphy, DVM"

Text of interest:

Local anesthetic dosage recommendations for birds are lower than for mammals because birds may be more sen- sitive to the effects of the drug. Systemic uptake of the drug may be rapid in birds, increasing the potential for onset of systemic reactions. There can be acute toxic effects if these drugs are accidentally injected intra- venously. Toxic side effects can include fine tremors, ataxia, recumbency, seizures, stupor, cardiovascular effects and death. Chickens were injected with high doses of bupivacaine (2.7-3.3 mg/kg) and showed immediate signs of toxicity such as drowsiness and recumbency.

Topical benzocaine has been used for minor wound repair in small birds. Topical bupivacaine has been stud- ied when applied to the amputation site in beak- trimmed chickens and provided 4 hours of analgesia.

"Proceedings of The Association of Avian Veterinarians - Pharmacokinetics/Pharmacodynamics of Bupivacaine and Lidocaine in Chickens" (#1745 on page 113)

Text of interest:

The objective of this study was to determine the pharmacokinetics and cardiovascular safety of intravenous administration of bupivacaine and lidocaine in chickens. Six adult chickens were anesthetized with iso urane via face mask. After that, invasive blood pressure, electrocardiogram, electroencephalogram, and heart rate were digitally recorded continuously. Subsequently the ulnar veins were catheterized. One side was used for drug administration and a catheter placed in the contralateral ulnar vein was used for blood collection. After anesthesia stabilization and baseline measurements, 2.5 mg/kg of lidocaine or 2 mg/kg of bupivacaine was injected over 20 seconds via ulnar vein catheter. One ml of blood was collected at 1, 2, 5, 10, 15, 30, 60, 90, 120, 180 and 240 minutes after drug administration. Plasma samples were assayed for presence of lidocaine and the metabo- lites monoethylglycinexylidine (MGEX) and glycinexylidine (GX) using liquid chromatography-tandem mass spectrometry (LC/MS/MS) and the mean was determined. Additionally, we observed within the rst 6 minutes following intravenous injection of lidocaine and bupivacaine a small non-speci c change in the morphology of the S waves in the ECG (lidocaine), slow ventricular rhythm with corresponding signi cant decrease in blood pressure (bupivicaine), normal sinus rhythm, and a heart rate decrease from approximately 280 beats per minute (bpm) to 150 bpm within 8 seconds following injection (lidocaine). Conclusions and clinical relevance: In chick- ens, intravenous administration of lidocaine was associated with proportional kinetics following administration of single dose. Cardiovascular changes are considered benign to the cardiovascular system.

"Controlling Avian Pain - Karen L. Machin, DVM"

Text of interest:

Birds may be more sensitive than mammals to the toxic effects of local anesthetics because lower doses (2.7 to 3.3 mg/kg) of bupivacaine in birds produce toxic effects. compared with higher doses (3.5 to 4.5 mg/kg) in dogs. It is recommended that the lidocaine dose not exceed 4 mg/kg in birds because seizures and cardiac arrest can result from overdosing. However, chickens receiving higher doses of bupivacaine (2.7 to 3.3 mg/kg) showed signs of toxicosis (e.g., recumbency with out- stretched legs, drowsiness) and distress immediately after injection. Other possible side effects of local anesthesia include depression, drowsiness, ataxia, nystagmus, muscle tremors, and hypotension.

Based on this and other reading I've done, my takeaway is that medications in the "-caine" class CAN be used, but use and amounts should limited as they do appear to have the potential to be toxic.

 

[casportpony]

@QueenMisha , excellent find!

-Kathy

 

[DwayneNLiz]

It all depends on the size of the bird, application site, and dosage used

A bigger bird can tolerate more
Makes sense to me

 

[casportpony]

It all depends on the size of the bird, application site, and dosage used

A bigger bird can tolerate more
Makes sense to me

Which is noted in textbooks about Procaine Penicillin.

 

[sunflour]

The original question was the safety of topical Pramoxine for use in poultry.

**I still stand by my comment that there is no proof of it’s danger to use in birds or chickens - there are no such studies to be found. In humans, cats, dogs and other mammalian animals its intended use is to reduce itching and minor discomfort from superficial wounds or skin irritations.

The information quoted from the Avian Medicine sites and texts refers to injected - local or iv administration of a different classes of anesthetics.
The reasons they quote of a smaller safety profile is that birds/chickens have a less developed blood brain barrier to those types of anesthetics and are more sensitive to central nervous system effects than mammals and the dosage has to be small and closely monitored.



All drugs are classified in different ways - Chemical structure is the only way to really compare their uses.


The term “caine” is just a name and not a class of drugs :

The two main chemical classes of commonly used local anesthetics are:

1- The amino amides: lidocaine, mepivacaine, prilocaine, bupivacaine, etiodocaine, ropivacaine and levobupivicaine.

2- The amino esters: cocaine, procaine, tetracaine, chloroprocaine and benzocaine.

But Pramoxine is structurally different and unrelated to those two classes. It does not have the ester or amide linkage of the procaine-type drugs. But is more similar to Dyclonine = another topical only anesthetic usually in throat lozenges. And both of these have a much different and less potential toxicity that those used by medical and veterinarian professionals and are therefore available over the counter.

IMO if one elects to use the Neosporin-Pramoxine on their flock - use small amounts for minor problems, avoid the eyes, combs, and vent areas. And I would not use it on serious wounds .

**All anesthetics are painful initially upon application or local injection - and petroleum ointments can cause a burning pain to irritated skin.

 

[SunHwaKwon]

huh, strange, and good to know that it didnt kill her. So it was the creamy lotion not the petroleum jelly looking stuff?
I would sure think applying it directly to the spine would give us an answer of whether or not it was going to kill out chickens

lol, i can only imagine that's how she got her name

My generic equate equivalent to neosporin with pain relief is petroleum jelly like. Perhaps it comes in different consistencies?

 

[sunflour]

My generic equate equivalent to neosporin with pain relief is petroleum jelly like. Perhaps it comes in different consistencies?

Topical are only available as ointment or creams. All ointments are a petroleum jelly. Not sure what the creams are made from.

 

[Eggsoteric]

I say myth. I've used a product called Recticare (which contains 5% lidocaine) on a standard size hen with a severe prolapsed vent with absolutely no ill effects. As with any medication, moderation should be taken into consideration.

 

[casportpony]

[COLOR=474747]The original question was the safety of topical Pramoxine for use in poultry. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=474747]**I still stand by my comment that there is no proof of it’s danger to use in birds or chickens - there are no such studies to be found. In humans, cats, dogs and other mammalian animals its intended use is to reduce itching and minor discomfort from superficial wounds or skin irritations. [/COLOR]

[COLOR=474747]The information quoted from the Avian Medicine sites and texts refers to injected - local or iv administration of a different classes of anesthetics. [/COLOR] [COLOR=474747]The reasons they quote of a smaller safety profile is that birds/chickens have a less developed blood brain barrier to those types of anesthetics and are more sensitive to central nervous system effects than mammals and the dosage has to be small and closely monitored.[/COLOR]



[COLOR=474747]All drugs are classified in different ways - Chemical structure is the only way to really compare their uses.[/COLOR]


[COLOR=474747]The term “caine” is just a name and not a class of drugs : [/COLOR]

[COLOR=474747]The two main chemical classes of commonly used local anesthetics are:[/COLOR]

[COLOR=474747]1- The amino amides: lidocaine, mepivacaine, prilocaine, bupivacaine, etiodocaine, ropivacaine and levobupivicaine.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=474747]2- The amino esters: cocaine, procaine, tetracaine, chloroprocaine and benzocaine.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=474747]But Pramoxine is structurally different and unrelated to those two classes. It does not have the ester or amide linkage of the procaine-type drugs. But is more similar to Dyclonine = another topical only anesthetic usually in throat lozenges. And both of these have a much different and less potential toxicity that those used by medical and veterinarian professionals and are therefore available over the counter.[/COLOR]

[COLOR=474747]IMO if one elects to use the Neosporin-Pramoxine on their flock - use small amounts for minor problems, avoid the eyes, combs, and vent areas. And I would not use it on serious wounds .[/COLOR]

[COLOR=474747]**All anesthetics are painful initially upon application or local injection - and petroleum ointments can cause a burning pain to irritated skin.[/COLOR]

Thanks so much for reading through all of that and replying with this post! -Kathy

 

[BantyChooks]

Following. Very interesting discussion.