FERMENTED FEEDS...anyone using them?

[EggSighted4Life]

Sorry to interrupt the current topic here, but I have a feeding proportions question: I am currently using Purina Flock Raiser feed as my feed-to-be-fermented and was wondering how much DRY feed per chicken per day I should use? Let me clarify. if I were to mix up enough to provide ONE DAY'S WORTH of fermented feed, how many cups of DRY feed should I use PER CHICKEN in that mix? At least as a starting point. I ask this because I know the total volume increases with the addition of water, but so does the nutritive quality of the feed. Hence the "less feed required" bonus of fermenting. I'm curious of how much less.

I figure my average feed around 0.20 # per bird per day. According to the tables... that is 0.05 # less per bird per day than average expected consumption. Which doesn't seem significant to me, because I should get that just from free ranging! So, what gives?! Of course over a lifetime with 50 birds yes it would add up quite a bit. But without range, I know my numbers would go up significantly.

Anyways, I agree with LG, and that's the same way I feed.

I would use the same amount of dry feed as usual to start off the ferment with and you can always add less later if your consumption is less.

I know people like to use the water in the FF as part of their calculation... but the birds would have consumed the water anyways... so I don't quite buy the "volume" idea of savings especially since some are feeding thinner and others thicker. And when we talk about the FF having more nutrients available.... I can't remember exact numbers right now.... And would anyone who has actual studies that prove these claims please post them?...

But lets just say protein was increase by 10 or 12 percent I think. Let's use 10 for simplicity... the Purina flock raise is 20% protein. So 20% times 10% would now give you 22% protein total, is my understanding. Correct me if I'm mistaken, please. So does this also then increase the actual caloric value? I understand nutrients being more readily available, namely from what I've seen, the Lysine and Thiamine... but not equally across the board for every grain, one actually went down for rice.

Even if the nutrients are more available... the calorie consumption has to remain appropriate to maintain a healthy weight on any living body.

I think there may be benefits I can't yet tabulate, like health from the added probiotics. But to me the most amount of savings has probably come from less waste. But even then when they shake their beaks the FF flies everywhere.

So, I've obviously bought into the whole FF theory, to the point of including in my signature line..... the change is poo smell and consistency was quite convincing all by itself. But now I'm asking as way of cementing my preference for some scientific studies to back this up please? Thanks for being kind and not ugly like I'm trying to ruin your religion or something all you hard core fermenters!

Now to the outdoors where the sun is shining for a change!

 

[frenchiegirl21]

Sorry to interrupt the current topic here, but I have a feeding proportions question: I am currently using Purina Flock Raiser feed as my feed-to-be-fermented and was wondering how much DRY feed per chicken per day I should use? Let me clarify. if I were to mix up enough to provide ONE DAY'S WORTH of fermented feed, how many cups of DRY feed should I use PER CHICKEN in that mix? At least as a starting point. I ask this because I know the total volume increases with the addition of water, but so does the nutritive quality of the feed. Hence the "less feed required" bonus of fermenting. I'm curious of how much less.

For my flock of about 50 we use 2 gallons of water with 24-26 cups of dry feed to make 5 gallons of fermented. This lasts 3-4 days because they also have access to greens and bugs. I think earlier in this thread the suggested starting point of feeding was 0.5 cups of fermented feed per chicken per day, but I could be wrong. If you are worried about the fermented feed going bad, use a smaller container to ferment in and see how long that container lasts. There is really no need to mix up new ferment each day. The only time I mix less feed is in the middle of the Texas summer when the ferment starts drying out before I can use it all. Hope this helps!

P.S. Fermenting feed for my flock has cut our feed use by 100-150 pounds per month, but I do have quite a few chickens.

 

[frenchiegirl21]

I figure my average feed around 0.20 # per bird per day. According to the tables... that is 0.05 # less per bird per day than average expected consumption. Which doesn't seem significant to me, because I should get that just from free ranging! So, what gives?! Of course over a lifetime with 50 birds yes it would add up quite a bit. But without range, I know my numbers would go up significantly.

Anyways, I agree with LG, and that's the same way I feed.

I would use the same amount of dry feed as usual to start off the ferment with and you can always add less later if your consumption is less.

I know people like to use the water in the FF as part of their calculation... but the birds would have consumed the water anyways... so I don't quite buy the "volume" idea of savings especially since some are feeding thinner and others thicker. And when we talk about the FF having more nutrients available.... I can't remember exact numbers right now.... And would anyone who has actual studies that prove these claims please post them?...

But lets just say protein was increase by 10 or 12 percent I think. Let's use 10 for simplicity... the Purina flock raise is 20% protein. So 20% times 10% would now give you 22% protein total, is my understanding. Correct me if I'm mistaken, please. So does this also then increase the actual caloric value? I understand nutrients being more readily available, namely from what I've seen, the Lysine and Thiamine... but not equally across the board for every grain, one actually went down for rice.

Even if the nutrients are more available... the calorie consumption has to remain appropriate to maintain a healthy weight on any living body.

I think there may be benefits I can't yet tabulate, like health from the added probiotics. But to me the most amount of savings has probably come from less waste. But even then when they shake their beaks the FF flies everywhere.

So, I've obviously bought into the whole FF theory, to the point of including in my signature line..... the change is poo smell and consistency was quite convincing all by itself. But now I'm asking as way of cementing my preference for some scientific studies to back this up please? Thanks for being kind and not ugly like I'm trying to ruin your religion or something all you hard core fermenters!

Now to the outdoors where the sun is shining for a change!

The main benefit I have read about and seen is that fermenting the feed breaks down the macronutrients in the chicken feed, which makes what is there more bio-available to chickens because the have a simple, monogastric digestive system and lack some of the enzymes needed to break down the macronutrients. It doesn't necessarily change the percentages, just allows the birds to get what they need from a smaller amount of food versus feeding it dry. Does that make sense?

 

[lazy gardener]

I'm hard core, but... you can't upset me even if I can't find any studies! I went looking, and found nada. May dive back into the net again, and see if I come up with anything. The most information I found was in the article in your sig! I think the reason that there are no studies out there is this: No one has financial incentive to do a study. When we ferment feed, we are buying LESS of the prepared feed that all of those feed companies make their living from selling them to us. It would be the big name companies that would subsidize any studies dealing with nutrient benefit of using their feed. The most objective information I can give you is from my own experience: my birds lay sooner and lay better than those of my near by friends who have birds that are eating the same feed, birds usually from the same exact source (some of them from my flock!) and living in the same environment. My birds eat (dry weight) .16 - .2#/day/bird. This is allowing them to eat as much as they want to eat. My FF figures compare to the Blue Seal pamphlet that states that an adult LF bird will eat .2 to .25# dry wt layer/day. Summer time feed consumption will most likely be lower.

 

[Molpet]

in the FAQ link there is this link : http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e06.htm
they list at the end 50+ references

... if you highlight and search for those you can read to your hearts content

 

[EggSighted4Life]

The main benefit I have read about and seen is that fermenting the feed breaks down the macronutrients in the chicken feed, which makes what is there more bio-available to chickens because the have a simple, monogastric digestive system and lack some of the enzymes needed to break down the macronutrients. It doesn't necessarily change the percentages, just allows the birds to get what they need from a smaller amount of food versus feeding it dry. Does that make sense?

I get that it makes the nutrients themselves more available. It's the same idea as sprouting. I read the same thing... I want to see evidence though! I'm just a show me type person.

When it comes to sprouting, yes the nutrients that are available changes from day to day. In the studies I read though.... it indicated as far as saving money goes that it really wasn't that viable for farmers because the dry matter of the seed didn't become more dry matter. It basically gained water weight during the 8 day cycle (in addition to the nutrients being more bio available). And they contend in this document...

http://www.idosi.org/wasj/wasj16(4)12/9.pdf

It is concluded that no increase in quantity and quality of DM and nutrients could be obtained by sprouting barley grain still some DM and DOM loss was found in green fodder therefore economically it is not recommended for animal farming.

So, I realize that is talking about sprouting and we are talking about fermenting. Seems the same logic would apply. We are not increasing the actual dry matter.... which I know isn't point of FF. But the point is savings (in part).... And I think the savings comes from less waste more than increased nutrient. Reason I think that is that the increased nutrients aren't actually filling the birds up more. It still, from what I can tell has the same caloric value.... And they are eating to meet their caloric needs.

Now of course I realize I'm not talking about the saving from increased health... where we don't have to spend $ on medications, supplements, or vets. And there is no $ value I can place on the stress factor when we do get a sick bird.

So I am not arguing that FF isn't worthy.... Just trying to get the facts straight so I'm not spreading yet another old wives tale.

in the FAQ link there is this link : http://www.fao.org/docrep/x2184e/x2184e06.htm
they list at the end 50+ references

... if you highlight and search for those you can read to your hearts content

Ya, I read that one yesterday. I will have to try what you suggest when I have time. Thank

I'm hard core, but... you can't upset me even if I can't find any studies! I went looking, and found nada. May dive back into the net again, and see if I come up with anything. The most information I found was in the article in your sig! I think the reason that there are no studies out there is this: No one has financial incentive to do a study. When we ferment feed, we are buying LESS of the prepared feed that all of those feed companies make their living from selling them to us. It would be the big name companies that would subsidize any studies dealing with nutrient benefit of using their feed. The most objective information I can give you is from my own experience: my birds lay sooner and lay better than those of my near by friends who have birds that are eating the same feed, birds usually from the same exact source (some of them from my flock!) and living in the same environment. My birds eat (dry weight) .16 - .2#/day/bird. This is allowing them to eat as much as they want to eat. My FF figures compare to the Blue Seal pamphlet that states that an adult LF bird will eat .2 to .25# dry wt layer/day. Summer time feed consumption will most likely be lower.

I'm pretty hard core as well! I like to speak with authority though on subjects and avoid spreading mis thruths if at all possible. I hear you though.... but someone did tell me about some chicken farms, I wanna say in China, where they were feeding at least 30% FF to their birds. So I guess it would have to be those type of institutions that would benefit from the studies. And of course I do realize many studies are skewed.

My feed range varies, like yours and think I rounded up saying my birds go through .2# day.

I will probably always stay free choice... but I wonder if giving smaller portions would get you birds to rustle up more of their own feed.... or make for skinny chickens. I'm guessing the former more than the latter.

So the dietitian my hubby works with agrees that fermenting is an awesome nutritional benefit. I don't doubt it... as I said, just looking to be able to back my claim.

One last question.... My birds burp up a storm! I noticed on the sprouting info that certain days increased flatule.... Well, I wonder if these burps added to the death of some chicks last year who were shipped and were to weak to pick their heads up to do the little gobble thing and maybe swallow anything that came back up, as I often see my adult birds do. On a couple you could hear the crackling in the lungs like they aspirated or something. Just thinking about how we are always fasting before surgery and when my dog drank pool water I didn't realize until the vet said "uh, did you keep food and water away. He almost aspirated".

Thank y'all for trying to help me get it sorted in my brain... these are only some of the thought I have to wonder about!

 

[lazy gardener]

Quote: My birds have no free range now. Everything is buried under snow and ice until mid April. So... all they get comes from my hand now. Though they do have some deep leaves spread in their sun room. And a new garden debris compost pile in their run, but that pile is frozen solid now. Hoping that as the weather warms, that the insects will percolate up through the soil in the sun room. Even in the summer months, my free range time is very limited due to constant hawk predation. I have to be out there when the birds are out of covered run. That's one more reason why DL is so very important to me in the coop/run.

Back to your comments re: DM in sprouts/fodder. While the DM may decrease just a bit, the simple action of a sprout coming to life and germinating does increase it's nutrient value through the enzymatic action. Also, with FF, true that the DM does not increase, but if you take a # of dry feed, add water and ferment it, you still have the DM of that #. But, you also have the increased vitamins manufactured by the yeasts in that FF. You also have the probiotics that populate the bird's gut, and you have a more healthy gut with longer villi. You have antinutrients in the grains broken down, so that every thing in that grain can be more easily digested. Ok, done preaching to the choir now.

 

[Beekissed]

I figure my average feed around 0.20 # per bird per day. According to the tables... that is 0.05 # less per bird per day than average expected consumption. Which doesn't seem significant to me, because I should get that just from free ranging! So, what gives?! Of course over a lifetime with 50 birds yes it would add up quite a bit. But without range, I know my numbers would go up significantly.

Anyways, I agree with LG, and that's the same way I feed.

I would use the same amount of dry feed as usual to start off the ferment with and you can always add less later if your consumption is less.

I know people like to use the water in the FF as part of their calculation... but the birds would have consumed the water anyways... so I don't quite buy the "volume" idea of savings especially since some are feeding thinner and others thicker. And when we talk about the FF having more nutrients available.... I can't remember exact numbers right now.... And would anyone who has actual studies that prove these claims please post them?...

But lets just say protein was increase by 10 or 12 percent I think. Let's use 10 for simplicity... the Purina flock raise is 20% protein. So 20% times 10% would now give you 22% protein total, is my understanding. Correct me if I'm mistaken, please. So does this also then increase the actual caloric value? I understand nutrients being more readily available, namely from what I've seen, the Lysine and Thiamine... but not equally across the board for every grain, one actually went down for rice.

Even if the nutrients are more available... the calorie consumption has to remain appropriate to maintain a healthy weight on any living body.

I think there may be benefits I can't yet tabulate, like health from the added probiotics. But to me the most amount of savings has probably come from less waste. But even then when they shake their beaks the FF flies everywhere.

So, I've obviously bought into the whole FF theory, to the point of including in my signature line..... the change is poo smell and consistency was quite convincing all by itself. But now I'm asking as way of cementing my preference for some scientific studies to back this up please? Thanks for being kind and not ugly like I'm trying to ruin your religion or something all you hard core fermenters!

Now to the outdoors where the sun is shining for a change!

No, it's not due to loss of feed waste....I had no feed waste BEFORE I started feeding FF, so the whole feed waste argument is moot.

Throughout this thread and the other big one are links to studies done on the whole nutritional aspect of fermentation of grains for monogastric animals, but I don't have the time to find them for you. I'd say do some good searches and see if you can find some for yourself. There's no question that the fermentation of grains changes the nature of the nutrition of the grain to a more digestible form, enabling the animal to utilize the grain more completely. The reason your chicken's feces don't smell as badly any longer is due to that increased nutritional absorption, where the grains no longer come out the other end under digested. That's also one reason my dogs no longer snap them up like some kind of treat...no more sugars to be found there.

It only stands to reason that, if the chicken utilizes more of the grain and less is expelled in the feces, that it's not just decreased feed waste that causes the nutritional benefit of FF. They don't eat as much because they are getting more out of what they are eating, so if your feed is X percentage of protein and they are able to actually utilize that protein instead of it being pooped out on the coop floor, then the overall protein consumption is indeed increased, no matter what percentage you are currently feeding.

Quote: Another problem with grain protein is it's poorly digested relative to animal protein. This means that a portion of it escapes digestion, leading to a lower nutritive value

This article tells a little more about fermentation in a ruminant, but will also give information about these essential amino acids that are produced by fermentation of feed....by fermenting feed for a monogastric animal, we are, in effect, providing those essential amino acids for them they would not otherwise derive efficiently from these grain based feeds:

http://www.vivo.colostate.edu/hbooks/pathphys/digestion/herbivores/ferment.html

 

[mobius]

Right, right, you can search within a thread...so you don't have to peruse the entire thing lol...nice option provided here....

 

[FlyWheel]

Quote: I'm not worried about it going bad, I have two glazed porcelain food casks, each of which will only hold about 1.5 quarts of feed + water, What I was worried about was possibly overfeeding them. Despite what I've heard that chickens are supposed to be able to self regulate their dietary intake, I have also read posts about people's chickens health deteriorating because they (the chickens, that is) got too fat. Oddly enough the primary reason I started fermenting had nothing to do with using less feed. I just got tired of hearing my birds choking and gagging on the dry feed as it clumped up in their moist throats. With wet feed that's not a problem; it just slides down their gullet. And then of course I started reading about the health benefits of fermenting it. Right now they are getting the net equivalent about 0.5 cups of dry feed per bird per day. With the water added the total amount is obviously more.

If it matters only one is laying with any regularity (about three eggs a week).