- Thread starter
- #11
Jvoyt
Hatching
@Wyorp Rock
Smells like cooked egg almost.... not like infection
Smells like cooked egg almost.... not like infection
Fly strike & Hole - Odd Problem
Ok, here is my take on this.....
I think she has been laying internally. The poopy butt that has been attracting the flies has been caused by a mass of yolks and probably fluid building up below her vent has changed the angle of her vent and caused poop to soil her feathers. The fly maggots have eaten through the skin below her vent and opened up a hole into her abdominal cavity. The brain like matter you saw was almost certainly her intestines. Unfortunately the protruding bulge that you see now is probably the outer surface of part of her bowel which will probably die as it dries out. It may also cause constipation as the contents of her bowel also dry out. The egg matter you have raked out from the underside of the wound is internally laid eggs that have been sitting in the bottom of her abdominal cavity.
Internal laying is where eggs, usually in the form of yolks released from the ovary, fail to travel into the Oviduct and instead fall into the abdominal cavity. Think of the abdominal cavity as a tank with lots of pipework (intestines) in it. The eggs/yolks drop to the bottom of the cavity. There is nowhere for them to get out because the pipes (intestines) are sealed, so they sit there and over time with the heat of the hens body and the pressure of several of them building up in a small space, some of the fluids leach out and the rest becomes "cooked" for want of a better word. These eggs and fluid (usually referred to as ascites) cause swelling between the birds legs below the vent... the fact that this bird has had a limp or unusual gait for a while suggests the swelling has been putting pressure on the birds hips. It also obstructs the bowel making excrement dribble out, more as liquid than a solid mass and because of the swelling it does not fall free of the bird's vent but runs down and cakes the feathers.... flies target it and maggots set in.
Unfortunately the prognosis is not good for this bird and whilst you have done a brilliant job to get her this far, her bowel being exposed (the bubble as you describe it) and the abdominal cavity below being open (I appreciate it's not a gaping hole, but not sealed) and exposed to infection and no obvious means to seal it, I think her days may be numbered.
The best I can suggest is to keep her in extremely clean environment, flush the abdominal cavity with sterile saline and keep that bubble as moist as possible. If veterinary treatment is possible, they may be able to irrigate the abdominal cavity and place or sew a mesh over the hole to keep the bowel from being exposed. There is a significant risk of it being pushed or dropping through that wound like a hernia and getting nipped, which will be extremely painful and fatal for the bird.
Anyway, that is my take on your situation. I'm sorry it's not a more hopeful one. Perhaps Wyorp Rock will be able to post diagrams of the reproductive tract which may help you to understand what |I am trying to explain.
Regards
Barbara
I think she has been laying internally. The poopy butt that has been attracting the flies has been caused by a mass of yolks and probably fluid building up below her vent has changed the angle of her vent and caused poop to soil her feathers. The fly maggots have eaten through the skin below her vent and opened up a hole into her abdominal cavity. The brain like matter you saw was almost certainly her intestines. Unfortunately the protruding bulge that you see now is probably the outer surface of part of her bowel which will probably die as it dries out. It may also cause constipation as the contents of her bowel also dry out. The egg matter you have raked out from the underside of the wound is internally laid eggs that have been sitting in the bottom of her abdominal cavity.
Internal laying is where eggs, usually in the form of yolks released from the ovary, fail to travel into the Oviduct and instead fall into the abdominal cavity. Think of the abdominal cavity as a tank with lots of pipework (intestines) in it. The eggs/yolks drop to the bottom of the cavity. There is nowhere for them to get out because the pipes (intestines) are sealed, so they sit there and over time with the heat of the hens body and the pressure of several of them building up in a small space, some of the fluids leach out and the rest becomes "cooked" for want of a better word. These eggs and fluid (usually referred to as ascites) cause swelling between the birds legs below the vent... the fact that this bird has had a limp or unusual gait for a while suggests the swelling has been putting pressure on the birds hips. It also obstructs the bowel making excrement dribble out, more as liquid than a solid mass and because of the swelling it does not fall free of the bird's vent but runs down and cakes the feathers.... flies target it and maggots set in.
Unfortunately the prognosis is not good for this bird and whilst you have done a brilliant job to get her this far, her bowel being exposed (the bubble as you describe it) and the abdominal cavity below being open (I appreciate it's not a gaping hole, but not sealed) and exposed to infection and no obvious means to seal it, I think her days may be numbered.
The best I can suggest is to keep her in extremely clean environment, flush the abdominal cavity with sterile saline and keep that bubble as moist as possible. If veterinary treatment is possible, they may be able to irrigate the abdominal cavity and place or sew a mesh over the hole to keep the bowel from being exposed. There is a significant risk of it being pushed or dropping through that wound like a hernia and getting nipped, which will be extremely painful and fatal for the bird.
Anyway, that is my take on your situation. I'm sorry it's not a more hopeful one. Perhaps Wyorp Rock will be able to post diagrams of the reproductive tract which may help you to understand what |I am trying to explain.
Regards
Barbara
Has she laid any eggs?
It looks like the damage is extensive. I'm wondering if she is laying internally and the wound has actually entered the abdomen and egg matter is leaking from there(?)
Is she doing any better?
It looks like the damage is extensive. I'm wondering if she is laying internally and the wound has actually entered the abdomen and egg matter is leaking from there(?)
Is she doing any better?
Ok I'm going to see if I can post one myself.....
The brain like tissue you saw and what is now the "bubble" that you describe is the intestines or gut...coloured green in the diagram but pink in real life. The ovary is not directly connected to the oviduct. There is an opening to it just below the ovary which catches the eggs as they are released, but if the egg is malpositioned or there has been some disturbance to the oviduct, the egg misses and drops down through the gut to sit on the abdominal floor. Once it happens once, it often becomes a recurring problem and as the mass of yolks builds up the weight of them no doubt pulls things further out of line preventing future eggs from ever travelling the correct route. The pressure that this mass of eggs exerts on the hen's internal organs can cause heart and respiratory problems as well as partially obstruct the gut and push the legs apart, causing a wide gait and sometimes lameness. The eggs themselves are also affected by the pressure, causing the fluid to leach out and the remaining matter to set or "cook". The fluid (referred to as ascites) is commonly drained out of hens suffering from this to give almost instant relief, but the underlying problem remains and sometimes infection sets in.
I cannot give a reference for all the above information, some is from experience opening up dead hens and some is from what I have read and learned from reading this forum and other is more inference and perhaps speculation on my part, but it all fits with what you are describing.
At the moment your hen has been fortunate not to become infected, but with her abdominal cavity breached and her bowel exposed, it is only a matter of time.
Antibiotics may help but that exposed gut is a major cause for concern too. I can't stress how important it is to keep it moist and clean. If it dries out and cracks or the tissue dies, she is goosed.
PS. I'm rather proud of myself as I actually managed to find a diagram and post it without having to rely on someone else to do it for me....
PPS. I see Wyorp Rock and myself are on the same wavelength with this.
The brain like tissue you saw and what is now the "bubble" that you describe is the intestines or gut...coloured green in the diagram but pink in real life. The ovary is not directly connected to the oviduct. There is an opening to it just below the ovary which catches the eggs as they are released, but if the egg is malpositioned or there has been some disturbance to the oviduct, the egg misses and drops down through the gut to sit on the abdominal floor. Once it happens once, it often becomes a recurring problem and as the mass of yolks builds up the weight of them no doubt pulls things further out of line preventing future eggs from ever travelling the correct route. The pressure that this mass of eggs exerts on the hen's internal organs can cause heart and respiratory problems as well as partially obstruct the gut and push the legs apart, causing a wide gait and sometimes lameness. The eggs themselves are also affected by the pressure, causing the fluid to leach out and the remaining matter to set or "cook". The fluid (referred to as ascites) is commonly drained out of hens suffering from this to give almost instant relief, but the underlying problem remains and sometimes infection sets in.
I cannot give a reference for all the above information, some is from experience opening up dead hens and some is from what I have read and learned from reading this forum and other is more inference and perhaps speculation on my part, but it all fits with what you are describing.
At the moment your hen has been fortunate not to become infected, but with her abdominal cavity breached and her bowel exposed, it is only a matter of time.
Antibiotics may help but that exposed gut is a major cause for concern too. I can't stress how important it is to keep it moist and clean. If it dries out and cracks or the tissue dies, she is goosed.
PS. I'm rather proud of myself as I actually managed to find a diagram and post it without having to rely on someone else to do it for me....
PPS. I see Wyorp Rock and myself are on the same wavelength with this.
- Thread starter
- #15
Jvoyt
Hatching
Oh my goodness everything you said makes complete sense..... Disheartening but I'm relieved to make sense of it all. The damage initially appeared extensive. I'm shocked she pulled through honestly. Up until the yolk cleaning, she was doing alright which seemed impossible. I found the above diagram when researching after we noticed the crevice & I was baffled about how egg matter could get below the intestines. That's when I knew we had a problem. I wasn't aware of the laying internally. This hen has not laid an egg since at least 7/2, which is when we noticed the issue with the maggots. She's about 3 1/2 yrs old. She did have an injury to a foot years ago which caused the initial gimp, I suspect a horse stepped on her while she shared its grain. She was isolated then too for a month to heal & regain mobility before returning to free range. She is wide legged and moves differently than the other hens & is slower, lays down & needs breaks. I figured it was the leg (only have 4 hens 1 rooster so they are looked at often - I wasn't aware of flystrike previously - all hens have since had butt baths & are now monitored but she was the only one with the problem I guess)
So far the skin appears ok. Is it possible a thin layer of skin grew over the intestines? She gets silvadene cream daily. After flushing & removing the egg debris, her stools were terribly watery & she was depressed. Yesterday & today stools are back to normal as they've been since this all began & her appetite is improved. I did a hard boiled egg/pellet mash which she ate. I tried putting her with the others to boost spirits & encourage eating but the one hen goes to peck her rear so she remains separated with family visitation through fencing She's tail drooped & lays down a lot but was up outside all afternoon scratching & pecking. She gets some time outside AM & PM in a pen and spends midday & nighttime in a huge dog crate with a bed & roost & food/water & dog potty pads which are daily changed (shavings would stick to her rear.) I'm trying to get her some Baytril. She does sound a little stuffy in the nose, but you mentioned respiratory issues. Ugh. I wonder if that crevice could ever heal? Some of the yellow material was adhered to her body inside that day so I didn't pull it. I was worried after it was her intestines but I don't think so. If she's standing normally the crevice is not open or evident. I found it only after washing & investigating the yellow stuff with her held.
So I'm worried continued flushing of the crevice could be problematic since that's what led to runny stools & depression & not eating? I haven't noticed any yellow leakage since. I suppose I'll watch it & clean if I see the yellow & otherwise continue her care & separation & indoor housing long term. I work for an animal hospital but they don't do chickens. I don't want her to be a "guinea pig" either. This isn't a common area for vets with knowledge of chickens or people to treat chickens
Anything else I could do in the meantime to boost her health?
You guys are amazing - genius!!! Thank you so very much for your knowledge & time. It's sad news & I can't undo the damage, but I'm relieved to learn what's going on & help her the best I can.
@Wyorp Rock @rebrascora
So far the skin appears ok. Is it possible a thin layer of skin grew over the intestines? She gets silvadene cream daily. After flushing & removing the egg debris, her stools were terribly watery & she was depressed. Yesterday & today stools are back to normal as they've been since this all began & her appetite is improved. I did a hard boiled egg/pellet mash which she ate. I tried putting her with the others to boost spirits & encourage eating but the one hen goes to peck her rear so she remains separated with family visitation through fencing She's tail drooped & lays down a lot but was up outside all afternoon scratching & pecking. She gets some time outside AM & PM in a pen and spends midday & nighttime in a huge dog crate with a bed & roost & food/water & dog potty pads which are daily changed (shavings would stick to her rear.) I'm trying to get her some Baytril. She does sound a little stuffy in the nose, but you mentioned respiratory issues. Ugh. I wonder if that crevice could ever heal? Some of the yellow material was adhered to her body inside that day so I didn't pull it. I was worried after it was her intestines but I don't think so. If she's standing normally the crevice is not open or evident. I found it only after washing & investigating the yellow stuff with her held.
So I'm worried continued flushing of the crevice could be problematic since that's what led to runny stools & depression & not eating? I haven't noticed any yellow leakage since. I suppose I'll watch it & clean if I see the yellow & otherwise continue her care & separation & indoor housing long term. I work for an animal hospital but they don't do chickens. I don't want her to be a "guinea pig" either. This isn't a common area for vets with knowledge of chickens or people to treat chickens
Anything else I could do in the meantime to boost her health?
You guys are amazing - genius!!! Thank you so very much for your knowledge & time. It's sad news & I can't undo the damage, but I'm relieved to learn what's going on & help her the best I can.
@Wyorp Rock @rebrascora
You are doing a great job and I can understand not wanting to take her to a vet that may not have enough knowledge to do a good job, especially when you are seeing so much progress from your own efforts..... I recently suggested someone take their chicken to the vets for crop surgery after it swallowed a large foreign object. Having done crop surgery myself a couple of times on a conscious chicken, I know it is relatively straight forward, but of course vets have to use anaesthetic and the bird died from the sedative, so the owner ended up with a dead chicken and a vet's bill which is pretty sad.
I really don't know if skin can grow on the outside of the gut or if it does, whether it is a good thing as it will probably prevent the abdominal cavity from closing up....you really want the external skin to grow across the hole and seal everytghing back up inside.
Hopefully the trauma of it all will prevent her from ovulating and thereby adding to the problem for the time being. I would not pull at the yolk that is adhered to remove it as it may tear away protective tissue from vital organs like the liver, but I am not in a position to make a definite judgement without seeing and feeling it myself, so go with your gut instinct. There is a good chance that it will become infected (egg yolk peritonitis) not that it has been exposed/handled. I understand not wanting to flush it often but if you have had your finger in there without being meticulously scrubbed, the opportunity for infection to have been introduced is high, especially as that hole is right below her vent and no doubt faeces will be leaking onto it daily and some seepage into the cavity, even just during the washing process is inevitable because of it's location. I appreciate you saying it is sealed with the bubble of gut unless you push your finger in but movement could easily cause a momentary break in the seal. You are almost certainly going to need antibiotics at some point in the near future, so obtaining some asap is a good idea. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of what would be best in that respect because we have to rely on veterinary prescription for them here. @Wyorp Rock may be able to advise you on that or perhaps @caspostpony who is the resident expert on medicines and dosage.
I wish you and her lots of luck in dealing with it and please keep us posted on how things go. Keeping my fingers crossed for her.
Best wishes,
Barbara
I really don't know if skin can grow on the outside of the gut or if it does, whether it is a good thing as it will probably prevent the abdominal cavity from closing up....you really want the external skin to grow across the hole and seal everytghing back up inside.
Hopefully the trauma of it all will prevent her from ovulating and thereby adding to the problem for the time being. I would not pull at the yolk that is adhered to remove it as it may tear away protective tissue from vital organs like the liver, but I am not in a position to make a definite judgement without seeing and feeling it myself, so go with your gut instinct. There is a good chance that it will become infected (egg yolk peritonitis) not that it has been exposed/handled. I understand not wanting to flush it often but if you have had your finger in there without being meticulously scrubbed, the opportunity for infection to have been introduced is high, especially as that hole is right below her vent and no doubt faeces will be leaking onto it daily and some seepage into the cavity, even just during the washing process is inevitable because of it's location. I appreciate you saying it is sealed with the bubble of gut unless you push your finger in but movement could easily cause a momentary break in the seal. You are almost certainly going to need antibiotics at some point in the near future, so obtaining some asap is a good idea. Unfortunately I have no knowledge of what would be best in that respect because we have to rely on veterinary prescription for them here. @Wyorp Rock may be able to advise you on that or perhaps @caspostpony who is the resident expert on medicines and dosage.
I wish you and her lots of luck in dealing with it and please keep us posted on how things go. Keeping my fingers crossed for her.
Best wishes,
Barbara
PS. If she is/was internally laying, then her days are usually numbered anyway, if that is any consolation to you, but at this time of year as we are approaching moult season, she has the best chance of at least making it a few more months till next spring because during the autumn/winter restorative period, they don't ovulate and you often see significant improvement in the condition, until they start "laying" again in spring.
People are having good results with hormonal implants (superlorin) for the condition but it is expensive and only lasts a few months before needing to be repeated.
Internal laying is a very common reproductive ailment in hens, that I have already directly experienced a couple of times myself, so even without the fly strike, you would probably have lost her sooner or later.
People are having good results with hormonal implants (superlorin) for the condition but it is expensive and only lasts a few months before needing to be repeated.
Internal laying is a very common reproductive ailment in hens, that I have already directly experienced a couple of times myself, so even without the fly strike, you would probably have lost her sooner or later.
I really can't add any more than what Barbara has already suggested.
For antibiotics, I would use Baytril. It is not approved for use in laying hens, but I don't think that you will be consuming her eggs or meat down the road and at this point in time, it may be your best course to keep infection at bay. Since you work for an animal hospital, you may be able to get a script from them - surely a vet will be sympathetic.
You have done very well taking care of her. The only other thing I can think of to suggest is maybe a chicken diaper? I wonder if that would help keep her cleaner or catch most of the poop - I have never used them and I'm not sure if it would even work for you.
You can purchase them online at Etsy, My Pet Chicken, Ebay, etc. I also found a link about how to make one if you're crafty.
https://www.mypetchicken.com/catalo...bles/Chicken-Diaper-Washable-Liner-p1753.aspx
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/how-to-make-a-chicken-diaper-a-how-to-with-pictures.65571/
@casportpony has compiled a few sources where you may be able to find Baytril here:
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/959119/baytril-enrofloxacin-sources
For antibiotics, I would use Baytril. It is not approved for use in laying hens, but I don't think that you will be consuming her eggs or meat down the road and at this point in time, it may be your best course to keep infection at bay. Since you work for an animal hospital, you may be able to get a script from them - surely a vet will be sympathetic.
You have done very well taking care of her. The only other thing I can think of to suggest is maybe a chicken diaper? I wonder if that would help keep her cleaner or catch most of the poop - I have never used them and I'm not sure if it would even work for you.
You can purchase them online at Etsy, My Pet Chicken, Ebay, etc. I also found a link about how to make one if you're crafty.
https://www.mypetchicken.com/catalo...bles/Chicken-Diaper-Washable-Liner-p1753.aspx
https://www.backyardchickens.com/articles/how-to-make-a-chicken-diaper-a-how-to-with-pictures.65571/
@casportpony has compiled a few sources where you may be able to find Baytril here:
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/959119/baytril-enrofloxacin-sources
- Thread starter
- #19
Jvoyt
Hatching
Thank you everyone for your help & guidance! The little white hen seems to be thriving now. We've provided her with her own coop (one of those store bought enclosures with the coop attached we got from a friend) next to the regular big chicken house. Now she's on grass all day with shade & protection from the elements so she can be out as normal. Her friends visit often but this has only tiny holes in the mesh so no butt pecking is possible. I still carry her indoors at night & out in the am. She eats aggressively & seems happier! No eggs. No yolk leakage, happy for now. She's lotioned daily. Her rear stays very clean, her poop seems to clear her body entirely which is a relief. She gets a little blu-kote after the lotion around the protrusion occasionally to help deter insects even more. I did get Baytril or a version of it from the vet yesterday so I may start that tomorrow. In my research on flystrike I found that many who survived the initial attack did later succumb to egg yolk peritonitis sadly. I'm sure her days are limited but she's living like a queen right now 
I was just wondering about her last night as I was trying to get to sleep! I am delighted to hear that she is doing so well and long may it continue. You really deserve a huge pat on the back for your efforts to heal her. We all have a finite time in this world, it's the quality of it that counts.... sounds like she is enjoying the best that a chicken can hope for. Keeping my fingers crossed for her.
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