For those interested in Breeding and or Exhibiting ABA/APA birds only

[Sonoran Silkies]

What is PB?

 

[BlueCamas]

I was just in a hurry and abbreviated "purebred", sorry for the confusion

 

[RedReiner]

something that bothers me... I come from a breeders background, dogs and horses have pedigrees and are registered with a registry because they are that breed. (sorry for the dog reference again but it goes to show about purebred and mutt) once a breed is established and breeds true, it is what it is. no other breed gets thrown in the mix now and then because it might be interesting to see how it turns out and still gets called purebred. in chickens it seems, folks throw in this or that to an established breed and still call it the established breed. I just cant wrap my mind around that. if you are breeding (insert whatever breed here) and they come in standard buff, someone comes along and tosses in a bird with a different comb and blue wheaton coloring trying to make something new, they still call it IWBH instead of a project... why is that? should not a recognized breed remain a purebred recognized breed? why is it ok to make some mutts and still call them IWBH? and sell them as such? pass them off as such? to me its a mutt and always will be, I think its deceptive to say oh yeah these are purebred IWBH and are really nice when in truth their mother was IWBH and their father was only half IWBH. chickens might not be registered and have pedigrees but I think if they are to be purebreds, they should be just that, no mutts in their background, no unknowns popping out because a seller was not honest. I really do get the project thing and creating a new variety...but stop calling them IWBH until they breed true and the characteristics of the other breed has been bred out for many many generations... I know I come across as if I am ranting, I sort of am I guess, hec I am not even sure I make sense at this point lol.

 

[wolftracks]

Quote:
I hate to bring the dog thing in too, but I started with GSDs over 40 years ago. Not my breed of choice right now, but over a 10 year period afterwards, I saw a lot of heads resemble a collie, more than what I had shown as a GSD way back when. Oh and I had lots of champions and my lines were once some of the best along with Rotties that I bred for 20+ years. Kills me sometimes to see the changes. My Cane Corso female is not a show dog, but met the standard when my husband bought her for me 6 1/2 yrs ago. Now that they are AKC the standard in the US has changed and some resemble Danes, Boxers, and whatever else was tossed in there to make a bigger dog and what the breed club decided it should be. That 10th gen outs the cross and some are crossed without anyone being the wiser, because the registrations are tampered with. Helps that DNA is now available.

I do have to say though that I find projects with chickens kind of fun. I like certain colors best, so maybe it isn't offered in the breed I like. Someone is gonna work on it. It might not be me. It might, but probably not, but it's interesting to see what the results are. I do think there are a lot of old breeds and rare breeds that need to be carefully raised to keep them to the standard of what they are supposed to be, but there has been such an increase of chicken owners in recent years, that that's when breeds change and colors are added and, well the list goes on.

Thing about a chicken is if you don't like it you can eat it.

I'm glad though that this thread is seeming to turn toward the topic that was started. Hopefully it will continue and even some of us dumb people can get the information we want or need. I do have some nice birds from nice lines and some I want to show. I've only attended shows as an onlooker or buyer, but intend to show some of these in the very near future. My intention though was to be able to breed my own lines and make it more satisfying for myself when and if I win. I've wanted to show them since I was 3 and would watch my ggrandmothers White Rocks and Silkies take all those blue ribbons. Guess I'm more of a procrastinator than I ever thought I was.

 

[hdowden]

Quote:
i would say yes and you can also try the breed thread as well

 

[Narragansett]

Quote:
See the discussion in another thread about the confusion caused by using nonstandard abbreviations.

Despite that, I get the gist of your post. Coming from a background of other species in which purebred animals are registered and pedigreed, it is an alien concept to grasp when it's allowed in "purebred" poultry. Because the unit of importance in breeding poultry is the flock, not the pair, the rules are somewhat different. In exhibition poultry, purity is deemed by how well an individual measures up to the Standard. If it LOOKS like a purebred, it is considered to be. Seldom does one individual bird have a great influence on an entire breed, like what might happen in dogs, horses or other animals. Individual poultry seldom remain showable for more than a year or two, leaving the skill of the breeder to be recognized in the long term by how well he can continue to breed similar winniers of consistent type. The introduction of other breeds will soon lead to a breakdown in proper type IF the breeder does not know how to select properly for correct type, so one individual bird even if mixed, yet looking like a purebred bird, will not make a breeder successful in the long term. Their long term success will be proven in the consistency of type in his strain, so ultimately that is what is important, not a piece of paper which proves purity. As I hope that you know, registration and a pedigree does not guarantee quality. A poultry breeder has to prove the quality of his birds at every show in the flesh, not just on paper, so in many ways it's a more practical approach than registration.

The other issue is inbreeding. Like it or not, every purebred animal has some degree of inbreeding. That is not always a bad thing, but done improperly, it can lead to disaster. There are many instances of a well known sire in dogs, horses and other animals, which had some good traits and was used extensively in the breed, only to find out later that he carried an undesireable recessive trait. In some cases these sires have become so well used before everyone discovered the problem, that in the entire breed it is difficult to find individuals which do not have some relation to him. Issues like this have caused some breeds to be plagued with genetic problems common to the breed. In every dog breed there is a list of problems that occur with some regularity. Outcrossing would help to eliminate these things, which is why they are still problems, because in dogs it is prohibited.

Also in poultry there are many varieties which are recognized which no longer occur in the breeds in which it is allowable. The only way to get these back is to cross it in from another breed, and it is done fairly regularly by some breeders. It could be argued that if a variety in a breed is extinct, it should be removed from the Standards. I don't disagree, but as outcrossing is still allowed for other reasons in existing breeds and varieties, it's kind of hypocritical to say that you can't do it to recreate a variety.

For some good information on why and how this is done properly, see Bantam Chickens by Fred Jeffrey, as well as some of the other older publications by the ABA.

 

[DuckLady]

Closed for review and clean up. Please be patient

 

[DuckLady]

This thread will remain closed for a while. After reading through it, I see that there is a lot more to clean up than was reported.