Genetic Hackle Fowl Chat

[JacinLarkwell]

I think the issue people would have would be selling the results of the crosses as purebred for either breed. As long as the heritage is fully disclosed to the next breeder, then they can decide if that is what they want to work with. My overarching goal with my GH birds is preservation of the genes I received from Joel. To that end, I feel I should distribute them widely, but my goals do not include outcrossing to other breeds.
I love the hear the results of such breeding and the genetic information gleaned, just do not represent them as pure GH to anyone until you have a stabilized line that has been used by experienced tiers and given a big thumbs up, then they would be your line, no longer the line of the breeder you got them from.

Oh goodness, no. I always make sure people know my crosses and that I don't only have pure breeds. The last thing I want is someone to think they're getting something pure from me and use it in a project that requires it

 

[JacinLarkwell]

The GHF here honestly most likely would be yet another vanity breed for me. Unfortunately what I find very attractive in a bird is not what my local community likes. So probably just a quieter peafowl in a way here

 

[Dovemaiden]

I think the issue people would have would be selling the results of the crosses as purebred for either breed. As long as the heritage is fully disclosed to the next breeder, then they can decide if that is what they want to work with. My overarching goal with my GH birds is preservation of the genes I received from Joel. To that end, I feel I should distribute them widely, but my goals do not include outcrossing to other breeds.
I love the hear the results of such breeding and the genetic information gleaned, just do not represent them as pure GH to anyone until you have a stabilized line that has been used by experienced tiers and given a big thumbs up, then they would be your line, no longer the line of the breeder you got them from.

I totally agree with you, that introducing new birds should be disclosed if you were changing the genome and selling these hybrids as pure strain breeder birds, claiming these were (example) the ORIGINAL Hackle line you bought into ( MINER, METZ, ALSDORF, WHITING, DARBEE, ETC) ; or if you were telling people buying your Phoenix that these hybrids are pure, undiluted Phoenix from the original show lines.
However, it did not sound to me as if Jacin wants to do this experiment for lucrative purposes or to start new strain(s) to propagate a new or "enhanced" breed for sales. I had a distinct impression this was for her own personal curiosity and edification.

As far as creating a new breed type, as you probably are aware, it literally takes generations\ years to develop new breeds; you have to present a large number of identical animals that can be shown to have all of the exact same traits reproduced , present them to the Poultry Association, show them at many shows, apply for a standard of perfection: you must get several judges to find the animal to be what you say it is, and other enthusiasts to support you in this rather expensive endeavor; it is inordinately time involving and complicated.
Moreover, people generally do it because of their ( almost fanatical) dedication to the idea of creating a new type of breed; definitely, it is not for the casual hobbyist.
Jacin stated she has a rather limited number of hobby birds and would to do a cross ( or crosses) to see the result. I did not see her mention selling any of the possible offspring produced, though that was prudent of you to mention that no, they could not be sold as purebreds of Phoenix( a recognized show bird with the poultry association) or as True Genetic Hackle Fowl( which we cannot show since there is not a Standard of perfection on them, due to lack of standardization on many levels. )

Brian Reeder himself encourages this curiosity, accompanied by careful documentation, thus as keeping exact notes as one of the best ways to learn about the effects of the genes in chickens. He notes that this is how genetic discoveries of alleles and gene sequences have effects and can be discussed and further studied.

We have been taught thinking in terms of Mendelian inheritance and the classic Punnet Square, with the idea of straightforward dominants\ recessives from high school biology, but it is SO much more complex than it was ever presented to us with the pea plants of Mendel.

Avian genetics is in its infancy: and the effects of dilution, extension of phaemelanin and eumelanin, autosomal dominants, quantitative accumulation of traits, just to name a few, and the intricacies of pleitrophic effect on feathering, both in density and length, coloration, musculature, skeletal structure, silhouette, density, short and long feathering, fast and slow growing feathering; non molting genes vs molting genes--and I am merely remarking on the tip of the iceberg that avian students & enthusiasts are able to see and have been recorded in a few papers & books-- are fascinating and certainly need to be explored.

This field is wide open now, and there is a plethora of knowledge to be gained at both a personal and a professional level; whether you are doing research for a publication at a university level for a thesis or research paper with your professors; or if it is to try to understand the effects of quantitative genetic expression, linkage, pleitrophy, etc.through your own research.

I was glad to see you support this research as well and would like to see her results: this truly would be insightful, even with just a limited number of crosses instead of hundreds or thousands, as you would see with Dr. Whiting.
Scientific curiosity is rare nowadays, and certainly must be encouraged when it is expressed in an individual.

 

[Dovemaiden]

Oh goodness, no. I always make sure people know my crosses and that I don't only have pure breeds. The last thing I want is someone to think they're getting something pure from me and use it in a project that requires it

And I had already gotten that impression from you as you were discussing the possible cross; , that this was an experiment you wished to try, not trying to sell birds with new traits.
I would wager many of us have done the same thing at times.
It is truly marvelous to see what variability occurs, and it sometimes creates some outstanding-looking, unusual birds that vary hugely from either parent.
I remember doing this with Silkies and Frizzled Polish many years ago, and getting some extraordinarily beautiful and unique birds. They weren't for sale, I just liked seeing the result because they looked like something out of Dr. Suess. Unfortunately, those crosses were not very hardy, and I never did get to.move on to an F1 generation. But it was a very satisfying and interesting venture in genetics!

 

[Dovemaiden]

Heck, I've got recessive white floating in my pheonixes, if I worked hard enough, theoretically I imagine I would eventually manage to get recessive white birds that at least resemble GHFs

I should send you a photo of my Cream GHF. He is a good tempered bird with a lovely form. He may produce some whites \ splash from a hen he is with now. Remember, as with any long-term feathered bird, you may have to keep your cockbirds in separate cages or pens when rhey are not breedi ng because of the feather: picking issue that some , but not all, hens exhibit. It seems to be a contagious trait however once one hen starts it, and they seem to deliberately target the long, thin feathers onn the capes and saddles of the males.
Also, GHF ( at least the line I have, the Darbee) , are used to a draft-free insulated quarters in the winter. Mine were all initially raised in the big separate cages on wire in an insulated barn.
I have slowly introduced them to the outdoors; they love the sun, and being able to dig a bit. I still rotate them in the inside cages, however; and tether them outside ( separately)on nice days, or keep them in a grass bottom feeding pen for a day.
I do not trust they would handle extreme cold well, as other breeds who have been selected for that cold hardy trait would do.
Also, if I was harvesting them for capes\ saddles as many people do, then it is frowned upon to have then outside as it fades the colors of the feathers( or so I have been told) . Those birds for Premier fly tying( like Whiting) live their whole life in a barn, away from direct sunlight.

 

[Dovemaiden]

Okay. If everything goes to plan then I may reserve some from both groups to cross.

Would you think sex would matter for either breed? I think it would be easier to use a male GHF personally for my set up, but I hopefully will have both semesters of both breeds

Out of curiosity what is Sharkboy?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

Out of curiosity what is Sharkboy?

What am I what?

 

[JacinLarkwell]

I should send you a photo of my Cream GHF. He is a good tempered bird with a lovely form. He may produce some whites \ splash from a hen he is with now. Remember, as with any long-term feathered bird, you may have to keep your cockbirds in separate cages or pens when rhey are not breedi ng because of the feather: picking issue that some , but not all, hens exhibit. It seems to be a contagious trait however once one hen starts it, and they seem to deliberately target the long, thin feathers onn the capes and saddles of the males.
Also, GHF ( at least the line I have, the Darbee) , are used to a draft-free insulated quarters in the winter. Mine were all initially raised in the big separate cages on wire in an insulated barn.
I have slowly introduced them to the outdoors; they love the sun, and being able to dig a bit. I still rotate them in the inside cages, however; and tether them outside ( separately)on nice days, or keep them in a grass bottom feeding pen for a day.
I do not trust they would handle extreme cold well, as other breeds who have been selected for that cold hardy trait would do.
Also, if I was harvesting them for capes\ saddles as many people do, then it is frowned upon to have then outside as it fades the colors of the feathers( or so I have been told) . Those birds for Premier fly tying( like Whiting) live their whole life in a barn, away from direct sunlight.

Okay. My plan, again, as long as everything goes to it, is to have the new space set up to have heat to prevent it at least from reaching negatives and hopefully below freezing. So what I'm hearing is that if penned with enough space, you guys don't think it's wrong to keep the male in a seperate cage in the house part of the pen somewhere he can still see the girls?

 

[Dovemaiden]

Okay. My plan, again, as long as everything goes to it, is to have the new space set up to have heat to prevent it at least from reaching negatives and hopefully below freezing. So what I'm hearing is that if penned with enough space, you guys don't think it's wrong to keep the male in a seperate cage in the house part of the pen somewhere he can still see the girls?

In my opinion, no, IF the cage is sufficiently large and he has distractions( as you would do with parrots, toys, etc.)
It’s not a problem if you want him with the females, you just need to keep in mind that some( not all) hens will strip off the cape &saddle, and teach others to do it, too. The warmth is necessary to the extent to keep frostbite from occurring, and froze water. If cockbirds get their wattles snd combs frost bitten, fertility goes way down until it repairs. So you do not want it to happen in the first place.
I do not dub, but that is a reason why, in colder climates, some people do have the combs and wattles surgically removed, to lessen the chance of frostbite & reduced fertility( see Stromberg’s pamphlet on dubbing).

 

[Dovemaiden]

I totally agree with you, that introducing new birds should be disclosed if you were changing the genome and selling these hybrids as pure strain breeder birds, claiming these were (example) the ORIGINAL Hackle line you bought into ( MINER, METZ, ALSDORF, WHITING, DARBEE, ETC) ; or if you were telling people buying your Phoenix that these hybrids are pure, undiluted Phoenix from the original show lines.
However, it did not sound to me as if Jacin wants to do this experiment for lucrative purposes or to start new strain(s) to propagate a new or "enhanced" breed for sales. I had a distinct impression this was for her own personal curiosity and edification.

As far as creating a new breed type, as you probably are aware, it literally takes generations\ years to develop new breeds; you have to present a large number of identical animals that can be shown to have all of the exact same traits reproduced , present them to the Poultry Association, show them at many shows, apply for a standard of perfection: you must get several judges to find the animal to be what you say it is, and other enthusiasts to support you in this rather expensive endeavor; it is inordinately time involving and complicated.
Moreover, people generally do it because of their ( almost fanatical) dedication to the idea of creating a new type of breed; definitely, it is not for the casual hobbyist.
Jacin stated she has a rather limited number of hobby birds and would to do a cross ( or crosses) to see the result. I did not see her mention selling any of the possible offspring produced, though that was prudent of you to mention that no, they could not be sold as purebreds of Phoenix( a recognized show bird with the poultry association) or as True Genetic Hackle Fowl( which we cannot show since there is not a Standard of perfection on them, due to lack of standardization on many levels. )

Brian Reeder himself encourages this curiosity, accompanied by careful documentation, thus as keeping exact notes as one of the best ways to learn about the effects of the genes in chickens. He notes that this is how genetic discoveries of alleles and gene sequences have effects and can be discussed and further studied.

We have been taught thinking in terms of Mendelian inheritance and the classic Punnet Square, with the idea of straightforward dominants\ recessives from high school biology, but it is SO much more complex than it was ever presented to us with the pea plants of Mendel.

Avian genetics is in its infancy: and the effects of dilution, extension of phaemelanin and eumelanin, autosomal dominants, quantitative accumulation of traits, just to name a few, and the intricacies of pleitrophic effect on feathering, both in density and length, coloration, musculature, skeletal structure, silhouette, density, short and long feathering, fast and slow growing feathering; non molting genes vs molting genes--and I am merely remarking on the tip of the iceberg that avian students & enthusiasts are able to see and have been recorded in a few papers & books-- are fascinating and certainly need to be explored.

This field is wide open now, and there is a plethora of knowledge to be gained at both a personal and a professional level; whether you are doing research for a publication at a university level for a thesis or research paper with your professors; or if it is to try to understand the effects of quantitative genetic expression, linkage, pleitrophy, etc.through your own research.

I was glad to see you support this research as well and would like to see her results: this truly would be insightful, even with just a limited number of crosses instead of hundreds or thousands, as you would see with Dr. Whiting.
Scientific curiosity is rare nowadays, and certainly must be encouraged when it is expressed in an individual.

Here is another valuable resource: