Goat experts and opinionated people needed: ivermectin vs herbals

[Beekissed]

Helmstead says: For those of you using herbal dewormers (and for that matter, cleaners:/)...I would love to see fecal results on your animals.

They don't work. Period.

If you have never used "cleansers", I can't imagine you can say, without doubt, that they don't work. Period. Same for herbals. Some people have great success with alternative wormers and are completely satisfied with their performance, some have tried them and don't feel they are effective. This still does not discount that some people have real success with nonchemical wormers.

I'm sure the level of infestation, general health of the animal, and other predisposing factors all play into the effectiveness of any agent to effectively deal with any given parasitic infestation.

I'm equally sure that, if these things did not work, the people who use them would eventually figure this out and stop using them. The mere fact that they continue to do so can only mean they have enjoyed some level of success with their usage.

Its kin to calling them liars when you insist they don't work. You may want to add a qualifier: "They don't work~ for ME." This may be a more accurate statement about your feelings about herbal/natural wormers.​

 

[helmstead]

Quote:
Yes, you can use the ivermec through pregnancy.

I always wait until after they've freshened to treat for the liver flukes and tapes (I use Valbazen for this) because it is not safe during pregnancy.

I would say, by far, injectable is superior to the pellets because you KNOW how much you get in there and don't have to deal with rumen digestion interfering with absorbtion. If you're good with injecting, go for it (in the thigh). I do agree...it's a lot to ask of an animal that is down...but they've got to come out some time.

Now...

Quote:
I am sorry, but most producers will agree with me. They really do not work. My theory is that people who stand behind herbal dewormers never had a worm issue to begin with.

And using a household cleaner...even if all it DOES contain "all natural" ingredients...to ME... is dangerous. WHY??? Why do it when for $3 you can buy a tube of proven dewormer???

Ya know...a LOT of "old time knowledge" is being swept out the door these days by research backed with solid scientific data. Everything from feed to health care is changing...in all realms of life. Aren't you glad that women with terrible PMS don't still get shock therapy? Just because it was a good idea at one time according to one person and caught on doesn't make it the right thing to do...

Steppin off the soapbox, sorry for ranting on your thread, freemotion...

 

[davidb]

I give mine the paste ivermec horse wormer, every other time, then safe guard

 

[freemotion]

Thanks, davidb....I am told by many that paste doesn't really make it past the rumen, though....

Go ahead and rant, helmstead, I like that people can express various opinions....and that people have well-thought out and strong opinions....even if they are opposite to each other. I want to hear all sides, with reasons behind the decisions.

I consider myself to be a mix of natural and modern, so it makes it even harder for me to decide certain things. I think there is a time for modern meds and a time for herbals. We cannot forget management practices and circumstances, either....have goats been running on the property for years, overcrowded, grazing grass? Or browsing a larger area and not dependant on grass? Are pastures rotated with other types of grazers? Are fecals done to check the program?

When I managed a show/breeding stable, I had fecals done to check my program, and found that I could worm far less than the standard recommedations of that time. We had large pastures, kept mown and clean, rotated, and very hard freezing in the winters. Also fantastic manure management.

So I have to consider what my circumstances are, and the circumstances of the new doe. Plus my ignorance on what is out there, as I would have my pet pygmies just wormed by the vet (injectible) when he came out for my horse.

Now I am leaning towards injectible ivermectin if I can get it, and then switch to herbal later when fecal tests show things are under control.

That link is very interesting, by Chirpy, from the extension service. Resistance is a NASTY concept. Old rotating programs need to be re-evaluated. Gotta take some time and read that article carefully.

 

[Beekissed]

And using a household cleaner...even if all it DOES contain "all natural" ingredients...to ME... is dangerous. WHY??? Why do it when for $3 you can buy a tube of proven dewormer???

Maybe people do it so their soil won't be tainted with the chemicals from the manure expelled after these medications. Maybe people do it so they won't have to think about others ingesting these medicines through the milk or meat. Or maybe people do it because they would prefer to use something that is nontoxic and biodegradable and is a surfactant, instead of something so toxic that it kills a very hard to kill parasite.

Maybe people are looking for a natural alternative to the harsh chemicals used in every thing we eat, clean with, breath or even wear on our skin. Yes, its easier to buy a tube of cheap medicine and throw it down an animal...maybe some of us aren't interested in what is cheap and easy as opposed to something that may be more healthy..for the animal, the consumer, the environment.

Why? Because its America, last time I looked, and we still have choices. Before there were ever these so-called advances, goats survived parasitic infestations...evidenced by the fact that they are still present with us to this day. One could ask how they did this? Natural selection? Finding things in their natural diet that affected and purged worms? Nature did the culling back then. Today we hand it a crutch filled with chemicals and say, "Here, this animal can make it to the processors if we just help it limp along to get there."

Some of us aren't into raising animals the easiest or the cheapest way to sacrifice quality and what is best for us. We may like to use selective culling and a more natural method of de-worming to insure good herd health. Its not such a bizarre concept, it just takes a little more work, a little more time. Maybe some of us are willing to do this to get where we want to be.

Noone here is suggesting the OP shouldn't use commercial de-wormers, we are just suggesting there may be alternatives to the commonly accepted route.​

 

[freemotion]

Very well said, Beekissed!

 

[helmstead]

Quote:
I know where you're coming from and there are still some herds being kept semi feral who retain parasitic resistance through natural selection. I am a producer who is not willing to loose an animal (a natural cull, as you call it) simply because of worms or parasites. Its not fair to the animals, kept so vastly differently than nature intended, to just leave them to die when it can be prevented. I've gotten into this topic with another BYC member in the past...it's a matter of different principals in husbandry. If you are willing to watch a goat die from infestation or cocci...good for you. I cannot.

I take EXTREME offense to your "cheapest and easiest" comment. I spend a great deal of time and money managing my goats in the healthiest way for my herd...and wether or not that was a direct comment, it was out of turn. You obviously have no idea how much time others put into their operations. Also the comment about an animal limping into the processors was out of turn. Gosh...I dont even know where to go with that one. You compare a producer who uses chemical dewormers to a cattleman that tries to pass of a nearly dead cow for the 5 seconds the inspector is there?

I am all for herbals. They have their place. Hollistic care is great. But hollistic care welcomes both eastern and western, and notices when one treatment doesn't work.

 

[Beekissed]

Also the comment about an animal limping into the processors was out of turn. Gosh...I dont even know where to go with that one. You compare a producer who uses chemical dewormers to a cattleman that tries to pass of a nearly dead cow for the 5 seconds the inspector is there?

The line you are referring to is a metaphor~it refers to propping up a herd's health with the use of medicines instead of preventative care. It was not in reference to your farming practices at all but a reference to commercial practices in herd health of any livestock today. It is a comment on using medicines to help an animal survive that would not ordinarily do so because its immune system is not optimum(limping~a crippled immune system~get it?). There was no mention made about cattle or inspectors at all.

And noone mentioned that they let nature cull their herds and leave animals to die a natural death~in nature, yes, on the farm, no. Some folks cull out~sell or butcher~animals that do not show a natural resistance to parasites and illnesses. Much like in nature...without the lingering death. Its just one way of trying to establish a herd that doesn't require as much intervention healthwise.

I take EXTREME offense to your "cheapest and easiest" comment.

If you recall, YOU were the one who brought price into the equation....

Why do it when for $3 you can buy a tube of proven dewormer???

This would seem to imply that, since its only $3 worth of medicine, a person would be a fool to try something else that may or may not be as effective. It also implies that it is the easiest route because of its price and the availability of being in a tube. Hence "cheap and easy".

There was no direct insult to your farming practices, just an opposing view to your stance on chemical dewormers and your implication that using anything other than what you recommend is foolhardy. If you care to read my post more carefully you will find that no attempts to insult you directly are included in the viewpoint.

 

[freemotion]

Ok, ok......I love you both.

Helmstead, I appreciate your input as well as yours, Beekissed. It was obvious to me that Beekissed was talking in generalities and I got the metaphor, not about anyone in particular's practices, and that no insult was intended.

There is plenty of room for different viewpoints and practices, and I have seen healthy animals in both situations. The natural way, done correctly, does take more time and effort and is not generally commercially viable....although Joel Salatin has challenged that notion quite a bit with his long-term success.

Wouldn't it be nice if we could all go for a nice long trail ride on some good horses and discuss this with the sounds and smells of the beautiful outdoors as a backdrop? Typing cannot convey tone of voice and facial expressions, so let's all get a good night's sleep, and I would love to continue this discussion tomorrow....

for now, my new and feisty friends!

 

[helmstead]

Well you obviously have found your "opinionated people" here hahaha.

Points all taken