Heritage Large Fowl - Phase II

[capayvalleychick]

Random comment here ...

I sometimes give tours of my ranch to people who are interested in my animals. Other than people that I know through BYC, the visitors who come here to see my chickens have never heard of Standard Bred poultry.

These visitors are usually family farmers or homesteaders. They may be familiar with the term "heritage chickens", yet they have no interest in breeding to a standard. I have trouble convincing people- especially farmers- that the utility of these breeds will be improved by using the SOP as a guide.

I'm seeing more people asking for breeder bred birds, rather than hatchery birds, but they still aren't understanding the difference between breeders who flock mate randomly and breeders who use the SOP for selection.

Our local 4H & FFA seem to only be focused on production meat chickens. For an ag focused county, our county fair poultry show is a disgrace, IMO. There are many organic farms in this region that raise a huge amount of poultry products. Some advertise their birds as "heritage chicken" but they are all hatchery production birds. That part of the community really scoffs at what I am doing.

That's why I was so happy this week. A young intern from one of the organic farms came for a tour, to discuss my dogs & pigs. Another intern came along with her, because she "just had to see my chickens." Both of them want to start their own farms, using heritage breeds. This was encouraging for me to hear.
The best part was when I took them to my breeding and cull pens. Visitors always comment on how big my Dorking roosters are, and I tell them that they are 2 pounds smaller than they should be, which amazes them.
I started my talk about the differences between Standard bred and hatchery chickens. Visitors are never interested in this. To my delight, the intern that was interested in my chickens already knew the term "standard bred" and what it meant. She had come to see how a farmer would set up a breeding program in an integrated livestock system. She wanted to see the buildings and hear how it all works. She had already interned on another farm with standard bred birds, so is researching how to do it for when she has her own farm. She has also been researching Delawares and had read about Kathy's Delawares. She was thrilled to see them in person.

I had to share this with you all because maybe you will understand my joy in this. I think Bob would be happy to know that a young, future farmer is going to choose standard bred fowl.

 

[fowlman01]

This is a general response to several posts by different people. The existing colors of Java's need help, not someones mistake/project. The cuckoo Dorking should never have been admitted to the APA Standard and they are pretty much gone now anyway.
At the qualifying meet there was only two that should have passed and the rest were culls. Craig may have some, but that is about it.

The Cuckoo Dorking is one of the reasons the Standard Committee is reviewing the current rules. They will be changed and one of the big things will be that the APA will be looking for long term commitment from all those participating in the qualifying process. ....and most importantly everyone involved will have to be an APA member. The days of mobilizing online and getting a bird qualified and then you and the bird disappearing is coming to an end. Some people just want to make their mark and then they are off raising pot bellied pigs or what ever else they move on to.

I had raised SG Dorking for about 10 years in the 70's. They were big birds, had short legs, but not like the Dumpy's or Creepers that have extremely short legs. I think the lethal gene business is some online person(s) creation, as the Dorkings of the 70's reproduced like mice. If you introduce Reds you will fight brassiness until you go to the grave and the chicken color calculator will not save you.

You are not going to resurrect this breed overnight, but don't believe a lot of the things you see posted about them by people that are only "online breeders" with no hands on experience. I have handled and evaluated Kims birds (Capayvalleychick) over a couple of years and there has been a vast improvement, so I believe she is on the right track, but as noted....I don't think there is a quick fix for any breed that has gone down hill. While some of these stories you read online sound really cool, it is just a story. The lethal gene in the Japanese (short legged bird) and the rest of them are in breeds with extreme shortness of legs. As far has using longer legged birds for breeding, that is just to achieve a better position for the male to help insure fertilization. We do that with Cornish.

Walt

 

[Yellow House Farm]

Hey Karen,

You are right, I reread the post I quoted, there was nothing in Hellbenders post that was mean spirited. It just seemed like I read about five posts making fun of the women with the Legacy chickens. I like her chickens. I can see a chicken chasing a not too determined raccoon away. Heck, I've seen a chicken chase a full grown man around a yard.

NyReds, I did just see my smallest hen peck my heifers nose when the heifer got a little too close, now my ROO wouldn't do that, but my hens, that's another story.

So apologies all. I'll go back under my rock and learn to read more carefully before I post.

So, Baybrio, in a nutshell, this thread is about APA/ABA poultry. In this culture, breed is defined by shape as put forth by the Standard of Perfection. Although we do recognize that there are some bona fide breeds not yet recognized by the APA/ABA for mere reasons that they have not been popularized sufficiently here and have yet to go through the necessary process for APA/ABA recognition, we also recognize that, along side the emergent culture of neo-chicken-philes, there is also a culture of introducing the "next best thing" that very frequently is naught but a scam. An easy half or more of the newly imported fads (which incidently are only popular among non-APA/ABA folks because you couldn't get one of us to fall for that bologna to save your life) are nothing more than early stage color projects, easily recreated here in one or two season with a little genetic knowledge: the silly "Orpingtons " and "Brahmas" for example. Others are regional landraces brought in from Europe that are more or less the "Barnyard Bantams" of my youth: Swedish Flower Hens, Icelandics, etc... one look at them shows them to be unrefined and genetically unstable--what we would consider certainly unworthy of being called a breed. Whatever these "Legacy" birds are, they're not a breed and they're certainly not old. Either they're the backyard project of a neophyte who's overly enthusiastic about their project, and posting them because of sheer, if under-informed, excitement, OR, in the event that they're trying to sell them and make money off of them, they're a scam, and folks should know that they're being duped.

One of the great advantages to this thread on BYC is that people can come here and get some fairly substantiated and defensible information; so that they don't fall into the trap of the newest fad that leads to nowhere and does nothing to advance poultry or the owners knowledge thereof. In short, if we laugh, it is so that we do not cry.

Edited to add: One of the several advantages to the Standard is that it protects buyers. Using the Standard, a buyer can guage quality of stock and know whether or not he/she is receiving stock of quality or if they're receiving junk. Incidentally, the entire hatchery industry is based on selling birds of a certain color as opposed to a certain shape. As a result, very little effort needs to be put into selecting for breed-typical qualities, because they've convinced an uninformed populace that it is "color" that makes the breed. Consequently, they make money with birds of ridiculously poor quality. If folks were more concerned with the "Orpington-ness" of their birds rather than their "Buff-ness" hatcheries would have to step up and produce something worth owning, but because people are content to buy a cheap bird of low breeding with an approximated pattern to run around their garden, the result is a boom of birds of pessimal quality all around the country that do absolutely nothing to preserve or promote real specimens of the breed.

 

[Yellow House Farm]

The conversation we had was much like a father/son conversation, excited about something they enjoyed together.

This mad me chuckle! Once, Bob and I were on the phone, and, getting ready to tell a story, he said, "Now, listen up and learn something..." I know tone can be hard in writing, but it was classic, very paternal, and truly endearing.


Speaking of the Little Rhody Poultry Show, I was there clerking today, and thought about Bob repeatedly. It's great to be part of this confraternity of folks involved in an endeavor that is ever as much science as it is art, wrapped in a shawl of determination.

The large fowl class really was great, Apdeb, you're spot on. The bantams have, indeed, been the meat of the shows for several years. Many--many--noted how large the large owl class was and how nice it was to have such a plethora of strong birds to choose from. There were, indeed, very few large fowl there that one would have called "hatchery class".

I showed a string of White Dorkings. People were very excited about them, not because they're show stoppers individually. They are yet to be able to run the length with my buddy Dan Castle's Australorps, but people in the know were very much surprised by the quality of their type, their uniformity and consistency, and....yes, my favorite compliment...how nicely they were washed--Thank you, Bob and the Heritage Large Fowl Thread community....I applied the advice I was given by those who know the ropes and EUREKA! I was, indeed, proud of the display.

Moreover, I took Champion Mediterranean with this pullet:



and Reserve Champion Mediterranean with this pullet:




I think Bob would have been excited. There were some great large fowl there today: excellent Dominiques (Ch American), Australorps (Ch English and Champion Large fowl), Silver Laced Wyandottes, White Wyandottes, Light Brahmas (Ch Asiatic), Black and Partridge Cochins, Golden Campines (Ch Continental), Salmon Faverolles, Barred and White Rocks. There were even a pair of respectable Barnevelders--which is no small feat. Did I mention the class of White Dorkings (

)?

Yes, indeed, a great day of heritage large fowl for all.

 

[Fred's Hens]

I'll just chat a bit of what I do. Can't speak about what others may or may not do.

I use a calendar, with big squares and make notes on that. Set dates, hatch dates, hatch results, feather out dates, egg laying dates, that kind of thing. I also journal my matings my pairs and generations and transfer my calendar information into that breeders journal. I now also include photos, I nice modern advancement. Maybe it is my age and weaker memory, but I see it as a good thing. This forces me to Write Things Down. I cannot imagine folks having a good enough memory to just "remember" all this stuff. Nah. I'm amazed that folks don't have basic data when I ask them questions. When did they feather? When did they start laying? How many eggs did she lay her pullet year? I get a lot of blank looks and stuttering.

Record keeping is essential. This is hard enough with only one main breed. I cannot imagine how difficult this must be with those trying to juggle record keeping with half a dozen breeds. I need to focus on just one or two breeds. That's all I can keep up with. That's just me. Plus, I don't have the "collectors" disease. You know the folks that have a need to collect a dozen different breeds just because they strike their eye. I don't get bored with my focus, I guess.

 

[thedragonlady]

I don't know, Pozees, It must mean something .

There is so much sex-linked stuff in poultry. It's really confusing to me.

Karen
I am thinking it points the finger at the dams of the pullets bringing something forward
which nether Walt B. nor I knew about? Since the male is Reserve Ch. quality and his
sire is 3x APA Grand Ch. Tho, Pullet B's dam is a Reserve Ch. .

Karen, you cannot breed show records ! You must look at, and breed the birds, regardless of show wins.Condensing the gene pool calls for using similar types, and virtues to be successful.Similar faults must be avoided.No good breeding a crow headed bird to a good headed one, just because the crow headed bird had a rich and famous sire, or dam. I've found that breeding birds is a very liberating thing. If the AKC saw my chicken pedigrees, I'd be run out. Breed the BIRDS, not pieces of paper !

 

[Yellow House Farm]

then I would say the parent stock has never been exposed to coccidia, in which case the chicks are receiving no maternal antibodies... so yeah if that happens then you would have to use corid until the chicks have developed their own immunity. personally I would find another source of chicks.

You're over simplifying. It's not simply about a little random exposure to coccidia in the soil. It's about the load level in the bird, and if the load level gets too high then the young bird is dead without medical intervention. It's not simply that the mothers pass on an immunity; it's that mother hens tend to cover small amounts of chicks in a larger environment and their exposure to droppings is lessened by the movement of the female. The reduced load level allows them to develop their immunity. The coccidia issue is not simply exacerbated by soil contact, but rather by manure concentration. If the ambient elements are also such that they support a strong coccidia population, i.e. March and April in New England, there is an even greater risk.

The cocciodiostat in chick starter is highly effective. The well paid scientists make sure of that, as do the regulatory agencies. Commercial feeds are quite adequate, and they do not risk their outstanding profit margins on providing ineffective feeds.

We raise hundreds and hundreds of chicks a year between the prime coccidiosis periods of February to May, and we do nothing but provide draught-free warmth, clean litter, appropriate floor-space, and correct nutrition.

I am quite certain that Walt is clear on the needs of his a particular husbandry conditions.

 

[Fred's Hens]

BYC is a bigger place than many folks sometimes realize. This is a very large place with a diverse membership, including those just starting out, to experienced homesteaders, to award winning Master Breeders, to American Poultry Association judges and officers who all contribute to make the BYC the dynamic community that it is.

If a thread, such as this one, is launched with the opening "mission statement" that includes references to the APA and to the Standard of Perfection and is begun in the forum for Breeds, Genetics and Showing, then it would be best for all participants to realize that is the intent and focus of the thread.

If adherence to the breed Standards as determined by the APA is not of any interest to you or showing just isn't your cup of tea, then please, we invite you to look elsewhere on BYC to get involved. Your constructive participation is highly welcomed. There are enormous choices available. Thank you.

BYC Mod Team

 

[Fred's Hens]

Michelangelo was reputed to have answered the question how in the world did he sculpt his David statue, "I saw David in the rock. I merely removed everything that wasn't".

The birds are art. The brush work of the artist. This is all I trying to say, (clumsily perhaps). The specific, finer points of the SOP for our breed are vital, but it can sometimes be difficult to move to the sum of those parts. But from the earliest days, artists were conscripted to paint idyllic picture of the birds. Schilling, to my mind, was a gifted artist.

Going to a show and seeing some of these living art pieces in person? Priceless. You can describe a true bred Rhode Island Red with words until the cows come home, but those words alone can never replace seeing an excellent specimen on the grass of your own yard. Words fail.

 

[Texasmja]

At the Bluebonnet Classic show today I won Best of Breed Wyandotte (White cockerel), Best Variety SLW , Best Variety White Wyandotte. I need to go through the pictures and see what came out. There were some Buff Orps that were HUGE. A pullet won CH English and a Cockerel won Res CH English, Cathy Gleason of Dallas owned the pullet. A RIR cockerel won CH American, and a NH Cockerel won Res American. I can't remember the rest off the top of my head I will have to look at the pictures.