Heritage RIR vs production RIR

[A.T. Hagan]

Quote:
That really sums it up. Do you have Rhode Island Reds? Yes you do but they are not of a line that has been selected to conform to the standard as defined by the APA. I suspect your are much more productive layers than the standard version as birds such as yours have been selected for productivity. It's not a case of better than it's a case of different from.

Which is what it all comes down to. Unless they have been crossed to some other breed or variety they are ALL Rhode Island Reds. SOME have been selected to conform to the cosmetic standards of the APA, SOME were selected with rate of lay, growth rate, and early maturity in mind, and SOME were not selected for much of anything other than looking more or less like a Rhode Island Red. This whole "heritage" and "production red" business is only serving to confuse people.

But this has been going on for a hundred years now so it's not like it's a new issue. The folks who keep birds for their practical qualities and the folks who keep birds for their cosmetic qualities largely parted company many decades ago and likely the twain will never meet again.

 

[Chris09]

A.T. Hagan :

Quote:
That really sums it up. Do you have Rhode Island Reds? Yes you do but they are not of a line that has been selected to conform to the standard as defined by the APA. I suspect your are much more productive layers than the standard version as birds such as yours have been selected for productivity. It's not a case of better than it's a case of different from.

Which is what it all comes down to. Unless they have been crossed to some other breed or variety they are ALL Rhode Island Reds. SOME have been selected to conform to the cosmetic standards of the APA, SOME were selected with rate of lay, growth rate, and early maturity in mind, and SOME were not selected for much of anything other than looking more or less like a Rhode Island Red. This whole "heritage" and "production red" business is only serving to confuse people.

But this has been going on for a hundred years now so it's not like it's a new issue. The folks who keep birds for their practical qualities and the folks who keep birds for their cosmetic qualities largely parted company many decades ago and likely the twain will never meet again.​

So in your mind does that make the New Hampshire a Rhode Island Red?

New Hampshire's where bred solely from Red's (Rhode Island Red) but they are a breed of there own.

Chris

 

[A.T. Hagan]

They were a strain selection and were selected over a long enough period of time that they had a consistent difference in appearance. They were intended as a broiler breed back in the day so it may be that when they were still a commercial bird they had a different rate of growth as well.

 

[7L Farm]

A.T. Hagan :

Quote:
That really sums it up. Do you have Rhode Island Reds? Yes you do but they are not of a line that has been selected to conform to the standard as defined by the APA. I suspect your are much more productive layers than the standard version as birds such as yours have been selected for productivity. It's not a case of better than it's a case of different from.

Which is what it all comes down to. Unless they have been crossed to some other breed or variety they are ALL Rhode Island Reds. SOME have been selected to conform to the cosmetic standards of the APA, SOME were selected with rate of lay, growth rate, and early maturity in mind, and SOME were not selected for much of anything other than looking more or less like a Rhode Island Red. This whole "heritage" and "production red" business is only serving to confuse people.

But this has been going on for a hundred years now so it's not like it's a new issue. The folks who keep birds for their practical qualities and the folks who keep birds for their cosmetic qualities largely parted company many decades ago and likely the twain will never meet again.​

Thank-You.I'm at peace now.

 

[Chris09]

A.T. Hagan :

They were a strain selection and were selected over a long enough period of time that they had a consistent difference in appearance. They were intended as a broiler breed back in the day so it may be that when they were still a commercial bird they had a different rate of growth as well.

So, your saying that there is no consistent difference in appearance between the Rhode Island Red hatcheries sell and a true Rhode Island Red that you get from a good breeder?
I see lots of deference between the two.

And from this post of yours

Unless they have been crossed to some other breed or variety they are ALL Rhode Island Reds.

you are saying that New Hampshire are a Rhode Island Red?

Chris​

 

[McSpin]

A.T. Hagan :

This whole "heritage" and "production red" business is only serving to confuse people.

But this has been going on for a hundred years now so it's not like it's a new issue. The folks who keep birds for their practical qualities and the folks who keep birds for their cosmetic qualities largely parted company many decades ago and likely the twain will never meet again.

I agree. Most people keeping chickens look for production qualities. Whereas, most people who comment on this site, prefer cosmetic qualities. Of these, very very few actually are able to breed properly for these qualities, consequently most small-breeder operations produce a bird that is good for neither.

I keep birds from both types and without a doubt, I have been far more disappointed with those labeled as show quality.​

 

[NYREDS]

So, your saying that there is no consistent difference in appearance between the Rhode Island Red hatcheries sell and a true Rhode Island Red that you get from a good breeder?
I see lots of deference between the two.

I don't think anyone is saying that Chris. In fact just the opposite. Back in the early 20th century Red breeders took two different paths, one group bred for productivity w/o concern for type or appearance, the other bred for appearance w/o concern for productivity. Both approaches produced Rhode Island Reds but Reds that differed in appearance.

A side note:
I have to agree with a previous poster re: the use of the word Heritage. Just my opinion but it's starting to annoy me. My ASOP doesn't list Heritage Delawares or Buckeyes Or Rhode Island Reds or anything else. What it does list is the names of those & other breeds without the prefix Heritage. The Standard describes the ideal appearance for the many breeds it includes. Some people have been successful in breeding toward thaose standards, some have not & to some it just doesn't matter.
Again, to me, Heritage is beginning to be as meaningful a term as Show Quality.​

 

[dsqard]

And here I was thinking the biggest debate was over EE or Ameraucana.

Yes that is a joke.

 

[kathyinmo]

Quote:
I don't see why it would be annoying. It seems to me it implies they are not hatchery or production stock. ALBC says:

Chickens marketed as Heritage must include the variety and breed name on the label.

Terms like “heirloom,” “antique,” “old-fashioned,” and “old timey” imply Heritage and are understood to be synonymous with the definition provided here.

Abbreviated Definition: A Heritage Egg can only be produced by an American Poultry Association Standard breed. A Heritage Chicken is hatched from a heritage egg sired by an American Poultry Association Standard breed established prior to the mid-20th century, is slow growing, naturally mated with a long productive outdoor life.

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
I don't think anyone is saying that Chris. In fact just the opposite. Back in the early 20th century Red breeders took two different paths, one group bred for productivity w/o concern for type or appearance, the other bred for appearance w/o concern for productivity. Both approaches produced Rhode Island Reds but Reds that differed in appearance.

A side note:
I have to agree with a previous poster re: the use of the word Heritage. Just my opinion but it's starting to annoy me. My ASOP doesn't list Heritage Delawares or Buckeyes Or Rhode Island Reds or anything else. What it does list is the names of those & other breeds without the prefix Heritage. The Standard describes the ideal appearance for the many breeds it includes. Some people have been successful in breeding toward thaose standards, some have not & to some it just doesn't matter.
Again, to me, Heritage is beginning to be as meaningful a term as Show Quality.

Hey Bill,

The thing that I cant figure out is in Hagan states

Unless they have been crossed to some other breed or variety they are ALL Rhode Island Reds.

So I asked him if he thought the New Hampshire was a Rhode Island Red because they were bred solely from the Rhode Island Red and has no other breed added.
and he reply's that

They were a strain selection and were selected over a long enough period of time that they had a consistent difference in appearance

To me that is saying that he think that there are no, "consistent difference in appearance" between the Rhode Island Red and the, "Production" Red.
Isn't that what they did to, "produce" a Production Red? The breeders strain selection and only bred high egg producing hen.

Chris​