Heritage RIR vs production RIR

[A.T. Hagan]

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And there in a nutshell you have it.

Do you want a bird that is pretty but can't lay enough eggs to pay for its feed?

Do you want a bird that lays really well but can't win a beauty contest?

Or do you just want a red chicken to run around the yard for whatever reasons you might want a chicken for?

I suggest we eliminate the name "Rhode Island Red" altogether and have "Show Reds", "Production Reds", and "Just Reds" and everyone can be happy. This argument has been going for a century now and likely will for another century to come.

We're into repetition now so I'm done with it.

 

[spartacus_63]

This is definitely an opinionated group, which is NOT a bad thing. I stand by my thought that a breed is a breed. Weather they all meet specific, man made standards or not. Let me just ask this question. What is the purpose for these cosmetic standards? Are they standards man thinks better the breed, or are they just pretty characteristics that are appealing to someones eye? Is there somewhere in this standard that takes into consideration a birds longevity, egg production, tendency to forage or other propagation traits. I would imagine that at some point, poultry experts of the time made observations of what made a good bird. Keep in mind that in order to achieve those standards, over time, selective breeding hurt the overall genetic strength of the breed. The RIR for example was bred to be a dual purpose bird. Through breeding for the "Brick" look, egg production dropped and the tendency to brood declined. These are both counter to the original intent of the breed. With out the less bricky RIR out there, the RIR breed would soon become a very rare breed.

I'm not sure what makes a puppy mill a puppy mill in your example. As I define a puppy mill; a breeder who over produces pups to the detriment of the mother with little regard to welfare of the animals and emphasis on profit. I know of two local hatcheries that I would not classify as "chick mills". They do not claim to produce "Show" quality birds, but they will provide documentation as to breed. I am unaware of any registration of birds to provide linage. All the birds I received from the mills were healthy productive birds. I have also purchased birds from independent breeders. I have lost half of those birds to illness. The local hatcheries I am familiar with run good sanitary operations. They produce good quality general purpose birds.

I have never been a "show" person because I do not have the discipline nor the desire. I do enjoy going to shows and think they have a place in the big picture. I am new to poultry but I have been around livestock my entire life. I raised hounds earlier and would put my dogs up against any Best of Breed out there, especially in the field. Hunting was my desired priority and I had good hunters. I never had any problem selling my pups because folks new I had good hunters. My priority for birds is to have healthy self sufficient birds that have good temperament and fill the bill of why I have them (meat or eggs). My Rhodies are still RIRs because that is a recognized breed, They are not production reds, or heritage reds or show reds, because those are not recognized terms. They are terms that have been added by folks trying to set their birds apart from others for a specific reason.

Finally, one must understand that a "Standard" for a breed is not the sole determination of a breed. At least not in other other species. Linage is the SOLE determination of a breed. The standard is only a means to judge a bird at a show. It gives judges a standard to look for.

 

[NYREDS]

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Sounds more like a dollars worth to me. I think it's a great analogy & I wish I'd thought to use it. We raise Pugs from the best bloodlines in the country. I see a lot of Pugs that would not fare well in the show ring but they're still pugs.

 

[7L Farm]

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It's man trying to make a better race car. People, are never happy & keep tweaking everything. Heres a good example take deer hunting. Not so long ago people would take their sons hunting cost was affordable & it provided a great experience for all. Today, you have to be rich to go hunting unless you own land. Thank god I have some land. The deer hunters today spend 1000's of dollars to kill pen raised triple didgit deer.I call them deer on steroids.Man has taken the hunt out of hunting. In most cases its money. To the rich its who can grow the biggest rack.

 

[Robert Blosl]

Lets just say this is a thread on a dog web site for raising dogs. The dog site is suppose to be for people who adopt sheltered dogs and they have a thread for German Sheppard dogs. I come along and see a thread that says Registered German Sheppard Dogs vs Non Registered German Sheppard dogs. I then post a picture of my dog I adopted from a shelter called shortey. I tell them that the lady at the shelter told me he was a German Sheppard.

I post his picture and they tell me no Shorty is a mix dog he has beagle in him and he is not a German Sheppard. But I tell them the lady said he was.

On and on we go. But I am not a poor judge of dogs and their traits. I have seen good German Sheppard dogs and their stance. They are something to behold. They may not win at dog shows but at least they are TRUE TO THE BREED or Standard.

That's all we are talking about. The production reds are and have high jacked the name Rhode Island Reds by the commercial people for over 75 years. They are not true to the breed just like if you say you have a Hereford heifer and she is half Herford and half Guernsey dairy cow . She has the color of a Herford but has the type of a Guernsey dairy cow I can not in my heart tell people she is full blooded Herford or go to a show and show her as such.

So if you want to call the red chickens that lay lots of eggs and are light in color and have little black in their tails and wings Rhode Island Reds go a head. But they are what they are. Commercial products of the breed that stole the Record of Prodctution classes away from the real Rhode Island Reds in the 1930s and 40s.

Old time Rhode Island Red men knew they where being cheated and maybe the owners of these chickens slipped cash in the chicken boxes when they shipped these birds to these poultry farms for these contest so they could win and make money selling chicks I dont know. But that is the history of how the breed of production chickens got going.

You may have a rooster on the roost that is have Standard and half Production red. People and hatcheries have done this befor and there have been people who crossed production birds into their Standard Breed Rhode Island Reds to try to improve their egg production and after five to ten years have given up the experiment. Why,??? They would only lay about 200 eggs per year. Why??? they are a dual purpose breed for eggs , meat and beauty.

They are like a Short Horn Cow. She is not a beef class nor a dairy class of cow she is a dual purpose cow.

That's why Heritage Breeders years ago had rules and Standards so these breeds would not change with Faddisms.

To me its like saying cant we have two breeds of Rhode Island Reds one for the production people and one for the Standard People who are trying to keep the blood lines alive.?

No it will never happen.

Let me tell you this. If all the Rose Comb and Single Comb Rhode Island Reds in the USA go away and all we have is hatchery birds. I and ten of you on this message board could not in twenty years convert these production birds back to the Standard Rhode Island Red. They have to many other breeds crossed in that has taken their color away from them. The Rhode Island Red has yellow, black , red and blue in its color pattern. If you as a breeder dont know what you are doing you will end up with color culls on your brick shaped bodies.

These are rules and more deeply Law of breeding just as Fit of the Fittest Principle.

Anyway this is the last time I am posting on this thread. We are beating a dear dead horse here.

If you want eggs go with Monroe Babcock's 290 Production Red Strain. There is nothing wrong with them but they can not high jack the name Rhode Island Reds because they do not fit the breed that was started in 1850. For the sake of God have some respect for the founders of this breed. What we are fighting for is their hard work and breeding of this old fine breed. There is not many of us out there today breeding this old breed about 150 of us with bantams and large fowl. While I am on the subject of bantams when you order a Rhode Island Red bantam from a hatchery you get one that is at least dark in color and trys to look like a bantam. Why they do not have the mixed traits in them like the large production reds do. They breed fairly well to their type and color. Nuf Said. bob

 

[NYREDS]

Anyway this is the last time I am posting on this thread. We are beating a dear horse here.

A lot of deceased equines get abused here Bob.

I think you're right though, it's time to agree to disagree.​

 

[McSpin]

I just so happen to be President of a beagle club for field trial dogs. The analogy is not a bad one. Field beagles must produce - in this case rabbits. How they look only matters in that the cannot be too large to run in their class (13" or 15"). They can (and some do) look like bassett hounds and still run in a licensed trial or can be entered into a show. Many of these non-beagle-looking dogs win field trials. The big difference is that with dogs, we prove their lineage with pedigrees. There is even extensive DNA testing done now, if a question of ancestry arises. The larger breeders are mandated to get their studs DNA tested. With chickens, I don't have to prove a thing. If it looks like a particular strain, then it is in the eye of a judge. I can enter it in a show even if it the result of an outcross between completely different breeds. Therefore, the chicken show people tend to look down on birds that don't look close to the standard. They don't care if it produces or if it actually the strain in question. They only care that it looks like the strain - at least when it comes to giving out awards. I find it odd that with chickens, I can win a show with a bird that isn't even the breed in question and can be prevented from entering a bird that is actually a particular breed, but doesn't look close enough.

 

[spartacus_63]

Well Bob, I hate to hear your leaving the debate, but in response to your statement; you say that production reds (which I am assuming you mean RIRs bred for production) have been cross bred through the years. I do not have any proof of that and the two hatcheries that I use both will provide documentation as to breed. It is my opinion that my Rhodies are in fact Rhodies. As opposed to your example with dogs, canine breeds are maintained by registration. If you had a rescue dog without papers, you would have a mutt. With dog breeds, there is an actual family tree that is maintained at whichever Kennel Club your subscribe to. If I wanted to breed birds to meet the APA standard for RIR, I could be imaginative and breed birds until I come up with a Bricky, lustrously red bird and never even involve an actual RIR. I'm sure it would take some time, but with the proper research, I could possibly do it in 5-10 generations of birds. So what is really in a name in the poultry world. The "show" RIR are no more important to the breed than the "production" RIR. As I understand the history of the RIR, it was designed to be a dual purpose (Meat & Eggs) bird. The APA later recognized the breed. So to be historically accurate, the heritage RIR moniker would belong to the "production" reds. Until the APA starts registering breeds, this argument will forever be moot.

As a side note, the APA standard is actually, the American Standard for Perfection. So does this mean that any bird that does not win is less of a RIR than the winner? As I see it from your point of view, all losers must be production reds or near to it.

 

[7L Farm]

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It's crazy this RIR phenomenon. You have this RIR that has every characteristic of being a RIR but no its not brick enough. One tail feather is the wrong color. Animals differ. I 've never killed a buck deer out of the same pasture that looked identical to the last one. Sure they have things in common. But there's always something different. Its just like finger prints there all different. We do not live in a perfect world thank god.

 

[Chris09]

Just because a bird is Red with Yellow legs dosent make it a Rhode Island Red.
Just the same as every Barred bird Yellow legs isn't a Barred Plymouth Rock.

Chris