Historic Presence of Jungle Fowl in the American Deep South

[Florida Bullfrog]

Are your Cracker birds descendents of red junglefowl, or do they come from gamefowl? I've read that gamefowl lose their "gameness" in a generation or two unless breeders make an effort to select for it.The feral flocks in Key West and Hawaii
came from gamefowl, but the "gamest" birds culled themselves out. Like your AGB, who removed himself from the gene pool.

That’s much of what this thread is about. What are my birds? What were the Cracker birds? Are my birds original Cracker birds or just similar birds that look and act like them? I don’t know. It says something to me that different people from different background see or project different ideas about my current flock. To people of Asian background, they’re definitely junglefowl hybrids with likely no American gamefowl influence. Yet others see them as Blueface or Hatch American gamefowl or close derivatives.

I’m not so sure anymore that there is a clear line between a dunghill type gamefowl that’s had the fight bred out vs a higher octane gamefowl that was simply raised to be submissive in a large flock pecking order.

My aseel come from confirmed game stock. They should be gamey. My brother and I each got hatching eggs off the same farm at the same time and he raised his traditionally isolated in fly pens and I raised mined free range past the chick stage among the Crackers. Mine are fiesty and dominant over the smaller Cracker stags but submissive to the dominant Cracker brood cocks, his are hell on earth to anything they meet, like the AGB was. And if you aren’t familiar with my AGB project, my AGBs are Cracker birds crossed to OEGBs. The AGB that crashed and burned was a F1 cross between those two breeds. But he was raised in such a way that he had never been defeated (he was briefly with 2 brothers when a chick and with 1 brother as a stag).

Because I can’t vouch for how “hot” the Cracker birds are relative to others, I’m limited to what conclusions I can draw about their gaminess and how I observe with them apply to gamefowl as a whole. But I know the aseel come from lines that were maintained for gaminess and there’s a world of difference between how the free rangers and the isolated birds behave relative to rival roosters.

 

[SarahGfa]

It’s from a study published in Nature:

https://www.berkeley.edu/news/media/releases/2005/03/02_turkeys.shtml

I have no idea how they know. The easiest answer may be they were brooded together and recognize each other.

OK. I found the original paper in Nature. The researcher observed that dominant turkeys mate more when they have a subordinate male to help, and came up with the theory that the subordinate must be at least a half-brother.

"The minimum level of relatedness necessary to offset a subordinate’s loss of independent reproductive opportunities can be calculated by setting the indirect benefit, rB, equal to the cost C and solving for r. On the basis of the values in Table 1, helping behaviour should be observed as long as coalitions are related at a level of r . 0.15. Given that half-brothers have an expected r value of 0.25, processes that produce half-siblings such as multiple paternity, quasiparasitism or cre`ching of broods fathered by the same male should not reduce relatedness among brood-mates to the point in which cooperative behaviour is no longer favoured."

So it is just a theory. But I think birds have some ability to identify their siblings. I have raised many batches of assorted-breed chicks, and the chicks always segregate by breed and color as they grow up. They don't have mirrors to look at themselves, but somehow they know who looks like them.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

And then the whole above discussion ties in to what it means for a gamefowl to be gamey. Is it a penchant for aggression and to pick a fight, or is it the penchant to fight to the death once challenged? And is gaminess something that is strongly exhibited in immature birds, or is it something that developed biologically when a bird is in its true maturity around the 2 year mark? Those are the sorts of arguments gamefowl people will go round and round about.

All that matter relating to my birds is that yes, they will kill each other, but no, it’s not constant mad dog aggression at all males at all times. It seems to be a factor mostly between the oldest cocks that have developed spurs and cocks that weren’t brooded closely together. It wouldn’t be a good idea to introduce a mature Cracker cock to another mature or near mature rooster it doesn’t know if you’re looking for harmony between the birds.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

"The minimum level of relatedness necessary to offset a subordinate’s loss of independent reproductive opportunities can be calculated by setting the indirect benefit, rB, equal to the cost C and solving for r. On the basis of the values in Table 1, helping behaviour should be observed as long as coalitions are related at a level of r . 0.15. Given that half-brothers have an expected r value of 0.25, processes that produce half-siblings such as multiple paternity, quasiparasitism or cre`ching of broods fathered by the same male should not reduce relatedness among brood-mates to the point in which cooperative behaviour is no longer favoured."

I don't think that particular quote is explaining that he guessed the birds are related. I think its him calculating at what point it would not be genetically advantageous for related gobblers to cooperate. The question is why they help each other when only the most dominant gobbler is doing the breeding.

But that's all moot if my theory that such would also translate into gamefowl, junglefowl, or other chickens, is in fact... poop.

And its looking like might be. Ragnar disappeared today. He was alive and well at daylight this morning. My wife noticed he was gone around midday, and I noticed he was gone tonight. I checked around the roosting sights and he's not roosted within the farmyard.

Its possible a predator got him, but not very likely during the day where he's one of the 60 or so free rangers. Several other birds would be likely to be caught before him. Nor do I see any loose feathers anywhere consistent with a chicken being grabbed. It could have happened away from the usual areas but Ragnar's territory was very defined and I don't see any signs of predation within it.

Where he was the same age as Number 1 and no other roosters remain on the farm near his or Number 1's level of maturity, I think its likely he took a woop'n from Number 1 and either went somewhere to die, or isn't dead and hi-tailed it to the woods. Or he might be crouched down somewhere blind and unable to see, in which case either my dogs or a predator will pick him off tonight. If my dogs find him they'll bring him up during the night and I'll see what's left in the morning.

If he just left, I'll probably catch him around the perimeter of the woods in the days to come.

My wife is disappointed, Ragnar was her favorite. But my favorite is Number 1. They each had some traits in common but some traits were a lot different. Ragnar's colors were more brilliant but Number 1's feathers' are fuller and also has better sickles. I also favor Number 1's lower tail carriage and he just overall has a better stature.

All of the stags I have left are chosen keepers, the ones that have survived several culls. Not that they're all of the best quality, they're just the second or third bests. In my opinion, Number 1 is the best rooster I've produced as far as physique so far. I may have to start selling or butchering the next round of stags as a policy when they get close to year. It will be a waste to raise them all the way to this point and then Number 1 kill or run them off. If I get another exceptional one like Number 1, I'll set it aside and decide whether I want to try a new flock in the far corner of the farm.

I wish I would have had my good camera in hand when I snapped this pic of Number 1.

 

[SarahGfa]

I am sad to hear Ragnar disappeared. He has a cool name. How big of a territory did they have? Did they each have a harem of hens? I think Number 1 would have some bad injuries if they had a real fight, since they are the same age and evenly matched. I hope you find Ragnar tomorrow.

 

[SarahGfa]

Because I can’t vouch for how “hot” the Cracker birds are relative to others, I’m limited to what conclusions I can draw about their gaminess and how I observe with them apply to gamefowl as a whole. But I know the aseel come from lines that were maintained for gaminess and there’s a world of difference between how the free rangers and the isolated birds behave relative to rival roosters.

Based on the posts I have seen from gamefowl breeders on this forum, asil chicks will try to destroy each other as soon as they get out of the egg. If they don't pop out of the shell fighting, they are not "real" asils.

Here is a literal day-old chick displaying "mad dog aggression":

I bought 2 asil eggs from a gamefowl farm. Hatched out 2 boys. Supposed to be confirmed game stock, but they are 7 months old and get along fine. So I probably didn't get "real" asils either.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

Based on the posts I have seen from gamefowl breeders on this forum, asil chicks will try to destroy each other as soon as they get out of the egg. If they don't pop out of the shell fighting, they are not "real" asils.

Here is a literal day-old chick displaying "mad dog aggression":

I bought 2 asil eggs from a gamefowl farm. Hatched out 2 boys. Supposed to be confirmed game stock, but they are 7 months old and get along fine. So I probably didn't get "real" asils either.

That’s stuff people say but I doubt the truth of. Gamefowl are worth big money and the more someone can emphasize nature over nurture and how gamey their birds are from chick hood, the more valuable their stock is from eggs or chicks. I actually don’t see a lot of that here but on devoted gamefowl groups you’ll see guys blustering all the time about how “game” their birds are because they kill each other as chicks. So do mine... when they’re overcrowded and stressed. When they have room to space out that doesn’t happen. Those guys just want to sell birds.

If gaminess has a biological reality (and I presume it does by default), it would likely be tied to the biological changes that happen as a bird matures. It’s an exaggeration by artificial selection of the natural territorial “fight” a wild galliform has. It wouldn’t make sense for it to appear well before the bird’s equivalent of puberty.

And my aseel were very aggressive when let out of the pen for the first time. Then they got knocked around enough by the Cracker stags and hens many time their age and they submitted. They were just older chicks. It probably would have been a different ballgame had they stayed penned until their current age. That’s what happened with my brother’s. He kept them penned until just a couple of weeks ago and now they rule all. Same stock as mine.

Mike Ratliff, one of the great old time cockers, would free range his for up to a year to a year and a half in bachelor groups. I’m sure individual bloodline has everything to do with the biology of when a bird becomes gamey. Some will mature faster than others. But I’m reasonably sure nurture has a lot to do with it too. You can likely take a clone of the same bird, raise it two different ways, and get two different results to a point. Then when full on maturity hits, the bird will either then have a strong dominance and win drive, founded in genetics but shaped by development, or it won’t.

Number 1 had no obvious injuries or scabs when I checked him over last night.

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

I found Ragnar dead under a blueberry bush several days ago, about where I guessed he might be if he had went somewhere to die. I'm reporting it now because this evening I found another rooster with his eye hanging out, one of the 8-9 month old stags that are the next oldest on the yard. I predict that 1 eyed stag will get culled by a hawk tomorrow. A red tail has been hunting here every other day.

I'm definitely going to have to start either finding a market for my young stags or culling them all when they get old enough to attract Number 1's ire. I pulled the aseel stag Jaeger off the yard a few weeks ago now and I pulled Mongo off yesterday. That's all the room to pen that I have unless I start putting them in dog-crate sized cages. The rest are going to either have to adapt or die.

I think I'm going to cross Mongo to a Cracker hen to see what I get.

 

[SarahGfa]

oh my god. Why don't you euthanize the rooster with his eye hanging out instead of letting a hawk finish him? Have you ever seen a hawk kill a chicken? They eat them alive.

Sorry to hear about Ragnar. What are you going to do with Jaeger?

 

[Florida Bullfrog]

oh my god. Why don't you euthanize the rooster with his eye hanging out instead of letting a hawk finish him? Have you ever seen a hawk kill a chicken? They eat them alive.

Sorry to hear about Ragnar. What are you going to do with Jaeger?

When I found him before dark I had too many honey dos and after dark I don’t know where he’s roosted. Won’t have another chance until I get home tomorrow. The trend seems to be the bigger hawks are too slow to catch healthy Cracker birds so they key in on wounded ones. So I suspect he’ll be a pile of feathers when I get home. That’s just how it is. If not, I’ll put him down if I can see him again. And I’m curious to see if I’m right. A few weeks ago I drove up on a bald eagle that had apparently caught a stag in the middle of the yard. I found it highly unlikely because this particular stag was very agile and a strong flier. I surmised he got blinded by one of the brood cocks as he was next most mature rooster on the yard. So if it happens to this one tomorrow I’ll know it’s probably a predictable event when one gets wounded badly.

Jaeger is in a coop with his pure aseel hen. I’m going to make a full flock of aseel off of them, keep a couple of hens back, and raise the rest free range. I’m curious to see if they’ll flock separate from the other chickens. Especially if I take them to a far corner of the farm near a water source and use a deer feeder to feed them. I think it would be pretty neat to have a full flock of free ranged aseels growing up in the woods. Ought to make for a strong bird if they can survive.

I was going to cross Jaeger to my Crackers, but my brother is doing a similar experiment so I can see how his turn out. And I now have my Liege, which I think are more likely to get me to the birds I want.

Mongo is some sort of American aseel mix or roundhead and I am going to cross him in to see how the offspring come out.