Horses and money

[ShrekDawg]

Thank you @KDOGG331.
And if they had just pointed out that barbed wire wasn't sutible for horses, I would not have been upset. In fact all I ever even said was that my cousin keeps her stud in with barbed wire. Heck, my place could be 40 acres of pipe fencing for all they knew but they still came in bashing my experience and knowledge based off of a type of fencing. Yes, my grandparents place has barbed wire, there's nothing I can do about that, it's not up to me what my grandpa fences with. And yes my place already does have barbed wire, but I'm not adding any more barbed wire to it, and eventually id like to replace what barbed wire is currently there. It's not like I'm oblivious to the fact that it's dangerous. I'm well aware. All I'm saying is that people around here don't care. I do happen to care, and don't particularly want to use it with my horses, but I only have so much money.
This thread was just so I could learn about stallions, so I didn't just go out and buy one without knowing what I'm doing. And I don't plan on having one any time soon.
And some people are clearly posting responses with out reading what has been said in the later comments.

Yeah exactly. I really don't get why all the attacks were necessary or why it's being defended.

But yeah, you never said it was the best type of fencing or anything.

Have you looked into woven wire field fencing? That's pretty cheap, depending on how big the area is. Or maybe there's some way you could make it safer.

I hope that despite the heated convos you at least did learn something about stallions.

And yeah, people really need to read all responses.

Speaking of which, I did read what of mine MeepBeep quoted and i do see the thing about barbed wire, forgot i said that, but 1. Despite what it seems i wasnt calling them a jerk becaus eof the barbed wire, i was saying sorry they're a jerk then saying the next part in the same sentence. Maybe should have been two. And 2. I wasn't condoning it just because I said it can be used without issues.. it's simple fact, it's dangerous yes but people HAVE used it without horses being injured. Maybe it's a matter of time but it's true. I wasn't saying run out and use it. But anything can be used without issues, even extremely dangerous things. For example, people have used chicken wire without issues. People have used bug spray on fires without blowing up. People have eaten things without getting cancer. Dogs have gotten chocolate without dying. Does that mean those things are good or recomended? No but it's just fact that not everything bad will hurt everybody. Of course maybe I'm overthinking it and I'm sure i meant some people use it successfully but that's true too. And obviously OP should replace it as soon as possible but if you have to use it there's ways to minimize the risk.

 

[abigalerose]

Exactly. I'm not sitting here saying "I love barbed wire and I'm always going to use it for everything" just simply saying that everyone around me does use it, wether it's right or wrong is besides the point. Just because it's dangerous doesn't mean everyone's gonna stop using it. I've pitched fits before about my grandpa using it but he's an old cowboy and says it won't hurt nothing. One time I even argued with a boy my age about it who said you shouldn't use anything but barbed wire, and if the horse gets hurt its the horses fault for being stupid, and he'd had lots of horses his whole life! I don't think anything like that. I hate barbed wire, I feel terrible if I see a little cut anywhere on my horse that could've been caused by it. But sometimes you have to work with what you got. Luckily for me the land I'm moving to only has half an acre fenced with it and there's enough trees in the fence line to keep horses from leaning on it. It's also so old that the barbs are dull. For the time being until I get more pasture fenced and get the barbed wire replaced it'll just have to work, but I feel way better about the fencing at my place than my grandparents becuase some of theirs is brand spanken new and super sharp. I'll have my horses moved to my place in about two weeks and I'm so excited for it.
And yes, I did learn about stallions. I wasn't planning on going out and getting one immediately anyways, it would be a distant thing, but through this post and talking with my cousin, I've decided against just getting one no matter what, and I'll only get one if I get serious about reining.

 

[Bunnylady]

Quote: One stallion, living in a repurposed outbuilding, and a couple of pretty mares "with good bloodlines" . . . . that is exactly most people's definition of a backyard breeder. Where did the idea that one has to be cranking out huge quantities of inbred, almost unidentifiable disasters to qualify come from? Makeshift facilities and a shoestring budget aren't exactly the hallmarks of polished, competent professionalism, y'know.

The animals don't have to be badly treated, or even particularly bad specimens; a backyard breeder is often just a little hobby operation that never really gets off the ground because the owner doesn't really know what they're doing/can't afford to really do it right.

I'm sorry, but the only "correct" way to use barbed wire around horses is "to not to." Just because you have never had a horse run another horse into it and get all wrapped up and cut to ribbons doesn't make it safe. At the place where I used to work there were a couple hundred feet of barbed wire at the back of both of the main pastures. While we never had a horse get severely lacerated, several of them did come up sporting parallel, equidistant deep scratches - the unmistakable mark of barbed wire. Usually it was a young/newish animal that had gotten pushed into it by a more dominant horse; fortunately, what was on the other side was dense woods, so the horses didn't want to get really close to it in the first place. The worst wire injury I saw was done by an inactive hot wire fence - without the shock, the horses got all over it and knocked it down, and one horse got it wrapped around his hind legs. He came frighteningly close to a permanently crippling injury. If you must surround horses with strands of wire, at least hot wire encourages the horses to keep their distance - as long as it is kept charged.

 

[abigalerose]

Ah but I'm not talking about breeding him to my mares, except maybe once to prove one of his foals. I would also like to compete on both of my mares at some point as well, although it wouldn't be something I could do for long since one is older and ones short. I'm talking about studding him out. And I don't want a stallion for the sole purpose of studding out, that would just be an added bonus.
If you read back you'll see that if I do this I want to turn the building into stalls, so basically id just be using the shell as a frame becuase it's the right size, and use pipe fencing, that's not something you can exactly do on a shoe string budget IMO.
And I don't think backyard breeders have to be inbred or mistreated. Like I said the place I went to had unregistered, non show horses that they were breeding just to breed, because they wanted to make money. All the horses were healthy, probably not inbred, and had good living conditions (although the fencing was barbed wire lol). But there was no real reason to be breeding those particular horses. And by the looks of things I don't think they were making any money anyways.
If I get a stallion to do reining on, yes if he's a good stallion I'd like to stud him out and put whatever I make back into him. But if he's not sutible for studding out I'd just suck it up and get him gelded. I'm not above doing what needs to be done.

And no one here is saying that barbed wire is safe. Let's stop talking about the dang barb wire. We all are fully aware it's dangerous.

 

[Bunnylady]

Quote:
No, but you've been talking about breeding your mares practically from the moment you laid eyes on them. You have speculated on breeding both of them to your cousin's horse, the one that she has already bred even though apparently the only thing to date that really qualifies him as a gene pool contributor is that nobody gelded him as a colt. When you first got June, you said you were going to wait until she is 4 to breed her; then you flirted with the idea of breeding her even sooner - and as I recall, one of the major players in the decision was the price of the stud fee. If there being no real reason for breeding is a qualifier, it seems to me that there isn't a really good reason for breeding June, yet you seem to be pretty much set in your mind about doing it - so it looks like you would be well established as a backyard breeder long before this hypothetical stallion could take up residence at your place.

 

[Eggsoteric]

Yeah exactly. I really don't get why all the attacks were necessary or why it's being defended.

But yeah, you never said it was the best type of fencing or anything.

Have you looked into woven wire field fencing? That's pretty cheap, depending on how big the area is. Or maybe there's some way you could make it safer.

I hope that despite the heated convos you at least did learn something about stallions.

And yeah, people really need to read all responses.

Speaking of which, I did read what of mine MeepBeep quoted and i do see the thing about barbed wire, forgot i said that, but 1. Despite what it seems i wasnt calling them a jerk becaus eof the barbed wire, i was saying sorry they're a jerk then saying the next part in the same sentence. Maybe should have been two. And 2. I wasn't condoning it just because I said it can be used without issues.. it's simple fact, it's dangerous yes but people HAVE used it without horses being injured. Maybe it's a matter of time but it's true. I wasn't saying run out and use it. But anything can be used without issues, even extremely dangerous things. For example, people have used chicken wire without issues. People have used bug spray on fires without blowing up. People have eaten things without getting cancer. Dogs have gotten chocolate without dying. Does that mean those things are good or recomended? No but it's just fact that not everything bad will hurt everybody. Of course maybe I'm overthinking it and I'm sure i meant some people use it successfully but that's true too. And obviously OP should replace it as soon as possible but if you have to use it there's ways to minimize the risk.

There is nothing arrogant or jerk-ish about injecting a good old dose of reality into a thread like this. Let me ask you a few questions. How do "you" think one should go about gaining the experience they would need to eventually get to the point of training horses? Do you think it wise of a person with little experience who, by their own admission, is still a bit nervous about cantering their own horse to take in outside horses to start in order to gain that experience? If one doesn't have the property facilities to house studs and lacks the confidence to work with their own horses whatever would that person do with 1200-1500 pounds of raging testosterone at the end of a lead shank if he starts acting up? So, do you think it wise for one to even entertain the thought of keeping stud horses in a situation such as that? Though the OP's heart might be in the right place, I don't believe she's thought her plans completely thru. What she should be focusing and working on is improving her riding and handling skills; take some lessons; find a weekend job at a local barn mucking stalls; turning out horses, etc. No one is trying to squash OP's dreams; just trying to persuade her to stop and really take the time to rethink how she's going about getting there; don't set yourself up for failure.

Questions for OP. Where are you planning on housing the training horses? Do you own the property or is it your Grandfather's or parent's property? They're aware of the risks they would be taking on if one of these training horses were to injure themselves in your care, correct? What does your training contract state as far as liability? Waiver? Who will provide and pay for feed? Who will pay for farrier and vet? What paperwork, such as health certificates, vet records, current coggins, proof of ownership, etc. will you ask the owners of these outside horses to provide you copies of before they even step foot on your property? You'll keep them separate from your own horses, correct? You've had a sit down with the owner(s) and laid out a training plan; either seen the horse or gotten an idea of what it is you'll be working with; what it is they expect in return, etc., correct? One thing I've learned about horse people is that you're definitely going to have some who will expect to have the whole bag of chips and eat it too when it comes to what they'll want in return for what little they'll be paying you.

My advice is to slow down; take a step back and really think your current plans thru.

 

[abigalerose]

Well, flirting with the idea is quite a lot different than actually doing so. If you take notice, I have never ever had a horse have a foal. And if I did let one or even both of my mares have foals once for myself to keep, I still wouldn't think that qualifies me as a backyard breeder, considering they're usually trying to make a profit. I have not decided if I want to breed my new mare or not yet, I'm waiting to see what I do with her, and waiting to meet the stud as well before I decide on anything, it may not ever happen. And as for June, I've already decided that I won't be breeding her unless I compete on her first and she does good, and then I would only be breeding her to a proven stud (there's only one stud I have picked out that I like for her), and even then, I would never sell the baby. Just because I've talked about the idea lot doesn't mean it's something I take lightly. A backyard breeder would already have both of them bred to whatever half decent stallion they could find. And I don't think just any old horse is worth breeding either, I've had several mares in the past, and the thought of breeding them never even crossed my mind, because they were only sub par horses.
Now with that being said, I don't see how everyone gets so stinkin upset about the idea of someone breeding a horse who's not a show winning 100% perfect specimen just because there's a lot of horses that need rescued, when no one seems to care when people do the same thing, I mean there's tons of kids in orphanages and fosters homes, but here we all are poppin out babies and what for? We're not all Olympic gold metalists, what reason do we have for passing on our sub par genes, other than just because we can?
Lots of double standards for animals and people. I think in either case if you can take good care of the baby you produce, wether it be a kid, a horse, dogs, etc. that should be the most import thing, not if its going to go on to president, a top barrel racer, or a police dog.
That was a little rambly but I was trying to get my point across. Lots of people have lots of different reasons for breeding horses, sure there are some who are just breeding a bunch of animals with not so great genetics just so they can make money, and there's other people who won't breed unless their horse is big money earner with conformation, papers and color and they know they can get thousands for the foal even if they had to put thousands into it.
I'm somewhere in the middle, I think if a horse has good conformation, good bloodlines, good personality, and color, and you want to breed it once and keep the baby, you should go for it, I think it'd be better if you competed on the mare first and proved she was good at something, but you don't have to, because sometimes all you want might just be a good ole trail horse. But saying I'm a backyard breeder when I've never had a horse have a baby, and I'm considering letting one of my mares, who are good candidates, maybe have a baby for me to keep, and probably not until after I see if I'm going to use said mare for any reining or anything, is wrong.

 

[theoldchick]

I highly recommend anybody who wants to be involved with horses in any way or form to talk to an equine veterinarian. Ask if you can shadow for a few weeks at an equine hospital. Visit breeding farms.Volunteer at an equine rescue. Do everything you can to learn all you can about breeding and caring for horses. Backyard breeder is not a detrimental term. It simply means the person(s) is breeding one or two mares for the sake of breeding. They may or may not have a stallion. The backyard breeder has a lot of emotion invested in their horses. What they think is a superb breeding animal will be someone else's scrub horse.

Let's set aside all this negative emotion and try to help the OP. Over the years as working as a vet tech I have never seen a small breeder ( I changed the term to prevent the raising of hackles) make a profit. Never. Ever. It is always a hobby to keep the wife/hubby happy. It's a money evaporating hobby that can be incredibly rewarding or devastating. When I have someone approach me about breeding their mare because her genetics are flawless I tell them to look at the parents of the horse that created this particular horse. I've seen many people breed a mare to a 'top' stallion that really didn't produce nothing much to talk about. Now this person has a foal that they have to wait two-three years to put into training. They have to maintain this foal and pray to God that the youngster doesn't require huge vet bills along the way.

Then after they wait all that time they have to hire a professional trainer to work the horse only to discover all the genetics in the world won't make the horse work a cow/or jump a jump/or do a sliding stop. So now they have about $20,000 invested in a horse, that even if it's not a prize winner, will still need to be fed, ridden, and maintained. People don't realize that champion they seen in the ring is the only one who made it out of dozens that didn't. The other 50 colts the breeder tried to raise just didn't make the cut. So where to these horses go? Most likely slaughter.

I have also seen people who wanted to breed their mare just to have a foal from her to keep to raise to ride. All goes well until life gets in the way and the person has to go to school/job/gets married/lost interest and so forth. There are millions of horses up for sale whose owners state: "Just don't have time for my horse anymore." It's really sad.

So, if you really want to be a hobby breeder (changed the name again to stop the sneering), get out there and do your research with people who deal with horses. Talk to an equine vet, observe what goes on at a equine hospital, volunteer at an equine shelter. Go to the sales and see what the price of horses are going for.

And if you do decide to start breeding, remember the life you create is depending on you the moment it hits the ground. You are responsible for it during good and bad times. You have to be there to feed, to do basic training, to treat injuries, and most importantly be able to afford the vet bills until that horse leaves your life. Are you prepared to spend $5000 for a complicated pneumonia case? $2000 for bladder stone removal?

These are a few of these things to consider. No matter what, remember the horse is a living creature who depends on you to make the right decision. And sometimes those decisions will rip your heart out. And there is nothing that can prepare you for that.

 

[gonehencrazy]

If you aren't satisfied with the amount you are spending/losing on horses already, get a stallion. It'll make you feel like the way things are now were pure heaven.

Dying

 

[gonehencrazy]

Here's my money pit. What's on his foot you might ask? Well that's a Soft Ride boot that cost over $250 a pair...and we destroyed one already. He gets bruises easy then abscesses.

The only way to make money with horses is to not own one. Period. I made a lot of money grooming show jumpers. And he has eaten it all!