Horses and money

[dainerra]

owning a stud of any species doesn't really have any "added bonus". You have so many additional expenses, just based on the fact that you have an intact animal plus if you even maybe kind of, sort of might want to breed him eventually you will have a ton of additional expenses to prove that he is a worthy candidate. And, with the number of males out there, you will have to have an exceptional male and prove it. That will make a ton more expenses with little chance of getting any portion of it back.

Again I'm going to be speaking dogs, which is what I know best, but I also know that horses and trailing/training them is much more expensive than dogs. If you want to campaign a dog in conformation alone to a #1 spot in the country as a special, you can expect to spend $35,000 per year. That's a base average, assuming that you have a high quality dog. Certain breeds are even more expensive. That is trial expenses and related fees alone. It doesn't cover food, training to get your dog ready to compete at that level or the fees associated with competing in performance venues so that you can prove that your dog is more than just another pretty face.

 

[ShrekDawg]

There is nothing arrogant or jerk-ish about injecting a good old dose of reality into a thread like this.  Let me ask you a few questions.  How do "you" think one should go about gaining the experience they would need to eventually get to the point of training horses?  Do you think it wise of a person with little experience who, by their own admission, is still a bit nervous about cantering their own horse to take in outside horses to start in order to gain that experience?  If one doesn't have the property facilities to house studs and lacks the confidence to work with their own horses whatever would that person do with 1200-1500 pounds of raging testosterone at the end of a lead shank if he starts acting up?  So, do you think it wise for one to even entertain the thought of keeping stud horses in a situation such as that?  Though the OP's heart might be in the right place, I don't believe she's thought her plans completely thru.  What she should be focusing and working on is improving her riding and handling skills; take some lessons; find a weekend job at a local barn mucking stalls; turning out horses, etc.  No one is trying to squash OP's dreams; just trying to persuade her to stop and really take the time to rethink how she's going about getting there; don't set yourself up for failure.

Questions for OP.  Where are you planning on housing the training horses?  Do you own the property or is it your Grandfather's or parent's property?  They're aware of the risks they would be taking on if one of these training horses were to injure themselves in your care, correct?  What does your training contract state as far as liability?  Waiver?  Who will provide and pay for feed?  Who will pay for farrier and vet?  What paperwork, such as health certificates, vet records, current coggins, proof of ownership, etc. will you ask the owners of these outside horses to provide you copies of before they even step foot on your property?  You'll keep them separate from your own horses, correct?  You've had a sit down with the owner(s) and laid out a training plan; either seen the horse or gotten an idea of what it is you'll be working with; what it is they expect in return, etc., correct?  One thing I've learned about horse people is that you're definitely going to have some who will expect to have the whole bag of chips and eat it too when it comes to what they'll want in return for what little they'll be paying you.

My advice is to slow down; take a step back and really think your current plans thru.

There's a difference between "injecting a good dose of reality" and being a jerk. They could have done the former without the personal attacks. Could have calmly informed and educated, explained why barbed wire is bad, explained why owning a stud is bad at this point, WITHOUT personal attacks. That just makes no sense and had nothing to do with the topic at hand. And once again i never once said it was a good idea to delve headfirst into this or that the advice was bad so I'm really not sure why everybody just LOVES to insist that just because I think the way it was said was extremely unnecessary and YES arrogant and rude magically means that I disagree with the advice or think getting a stallion is a good idea. Also when did she ever say she was afraid to canter? And also while you might not think it's a good idea to jump straight into training horses, and yeah maybe it is not, there is also something to be said for jumping in headfirst and gaining experience that way. She would certainly gain A LOT of experience. Not that it's necessarily a good idea and she could get hurt but she would learn and it's up to her.

ALSO.

What if she had been a child? You don't know if she is or not but what if she had been? Would you seriously speak to a child that way? If so i feel sorry for your kids.

But I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree because clearly this might be a matter of age and where/how one was raised. Plus I haven't read the latest posts yet and also I'm not going to be scared to come on the site (qhy i havent been back) so I'm not continuing this fight. Can't remember who started it but it doesn't matter, I'm ending it.

Let's get back to helping OP and not tearing her down

 

[ShrekDawg]

There is nothing arrogant or jerk-ish about injecting a good old dose of reality into a thread like this.  Let me ask you a few questions.  How do "you" think one should go about gaining the experience they would need to eventually get to the point of training horses?  Do you think it wise of a person with little experience who, by their own admission, is still a bit nervous about cantering their own horse to take in outside horses to start in order to gain that experience?  If one doesn't have the property facilities to house studs and lacks the confidence to work with their own horses whatever would that person do with 1200-1500 pounds of raging testosterone at the end of a lead shank if he starts acting up?  So, do you think it wise for one to even entertain the thought of keeping stud horses in a situation such as that?  Though the OP's heart might be in the right place, I don't believe she's thought her plans completely thru.  What she should be focusing and working on is improving her riding and handling skills; take some lessons; find a weekend job at a local barn mucking stalls; turning out horses, etc.  No one is trying to squash OP's dreams; just trying to persuade her to stop and really take the time to rethink how she's going about getting there; don't set yourself up for failure.

Questions for OP.  Where are you planning on housing the training horses?  Do you own the property or is it your Grandfather's or parent's property?  They're aware of the risks they would be taking on if one of these training horses were to injure themselves in your care, correct?  What does your training contract state as far as liability?  Waiver?  Who will provide and pay for feed?  Who will pay for farrier and vet?  What paperwork, such as health certificates, vet records, current coggins, proof of ownership, etc. will you ask the owners of these outside horses to provide you copies of before they even step foot on your property?  You'll keep them separate from your own horses, correct?  You've had a sit down with the owner(s) and laid out a training plan; either seen the horse or gotten an idea of what it is you'll be working with; what it is they expect in return, etc., correct?  One thing I've learned about horse people is that you're definitely going to have some who will expect to have the whole bag of chips and eat it too when it comes to what they'll want in return for what little they'll be paying you.

My advice is to slow down; take a step back and really think your current plans thru.

Oh and also as for your questions, I'd probably ride more first and yes i agree with every one of your suggestions at the end of the first paragraph, they're good and youre right that she should probably ride more first but once again i never disagreed with the advice, just with how it was delivered and personal attacks. But again I'm not continuing this

 

[abigalerose]

I did state in a different thread a while back that I was nervous about cantering, not necessarily that I couldn't do it just that it made me very nervous. I have been working on it with my new mare though and I'm a lot more confident. The reason it made me so nervous was becuase of an accident I had when I was little. But anyways, I've come a long ways, and the mare I'm training right now is no where near ready to be cantering yet, considering she's not even ready to be saddled yet, so that gives me more time to practice too. Since I've started training my mare that my other threat is about (June) I've ridden probably 5 days a week most weeks since then. I've put a lot of hours in these past few months, not saying I'm an expert rider by any means, but all the hands on stuff I've been doing has improved me tremendously. And since the only training I have done is colt starting that's all that I'm offering right now, I would never try to do any more extensive training, start an older horse, or refresh an old horse. I know what my limits are. I also inform anyone who brings me a horse that it could very well take me longer than a month to start it becuase I don't want to push to much to fast and hurt myself or mess up the horses training. If there was a better way for me to get experience I would, and believe me I've looked into it. But this is about the only way. I know I'm diving into something big but I'm also being cautious.
And agreed, their advice didn't offend me, only the way they said it

 

[ShrekDawg]

I highly recommend anybody who wants to be involved with horses in any way or form to talk to an equine veterinarian.  Ask if you can shadow for a few weeks at an equine hospital.  Visit breeding farms.Volunteer at an equine rescue.  Do everything you can to learn all you can about breeding and caring for horses.  Backyard breeder is not a detrimental term.  It simply means the person(s) is breeding one or two mares for the sake of breeding.  They may or may not have a stallion.  The backyard breeder has a lot of emotion invested in their horses.  What they think is a superb breeding animal will be someone else's scrub horse.

Let's set aside all this negative emotion and try to help the OP. Over the years as working as a vet tech I have never seen a small breeder ( I changed the term to prevent the raising of hackles) make a profit.  Never. Ever.  It is always a hobby to keep the wife/hubby happy.  It's a money evaporating hobby that can be incredibly rewarding or devastating.  When I have someone approach me about breeding their mare because her genetics are flawless I tell them to look at the parents of the horse that created this particular horse.  I've seen many people breed a mare to a 'top' stallion that really didn't produce nothing much to talk about.  Now this person has a foal that they have to wait two-three years to put into training.  They have to maintain this foal and pray to God that the youngster doesn't require huge vet bills along the way.

Then after they wait all that time they have to hire a professional trainer to work the horse only to discover all the genetics in the world won't make the horse work a cow/or jump a jump/or do a sliding stop.  So now they have about $20,000 invested in a horse, that even if it's not a prize winner, will still need to be fed, ridden, and maintained.  People don't realize that champion they seen in the ring is the  only one who made it out of dozens that didn't.  The other 50 colts the breeder tried to raise just didn't make the cut.  So where to these horses go?  Most likely slaughter.

I have also seen people who wanted to breed their mare just to have a foal from her to keep to raise to ride.  All goes well until  life gets in the way and the person has to go to school/job/gets married/lost interest and so forth.  There are millions of horses up for sale whose owners state:  "Just don't have time for my horse anymore."  It's really sad.

So, if you really want to be a hobby breeder (changed the name again to stop the sneering), get out there and do your research with people who deal with horses.  Talk to an equine vet, observe what goes on at a equine hospital, volunteer at an equine shelter.  Go to the sales and see what the price of horses are going for.

And if you do decide to start breeding, remember the life you create is depending on you the moment it hits the ground.  You are responsible for it during good and bad times.  You have to be there to feed, to do basic training, to treat injuries, and most importantly be able to afford  the vet bills until that horse leaves your life.  Are you prepared to spend $5000 for a complicated pneumonia case?  $2000 for bladder stone removal?

These are a few of these things to consider.  No matter what, remember the horse is a living creature who depends on you to make the right decision.  And sometimes those decisions will rip your heart out.  And there is nothing that can prepare you for that.

Very well said and agree with everything in here. And see, this is a good example of how to calmly educate and explain (and this post is chock full of information) without needing to personally attack anyone or be a jerk.

I did state in a different thread a while back that I was nervous about cantering, not necessarily that I couldn't do it just that it made me very nervous. I have been working on it with my new mare though and I'm a lot more confident. The reason it made me so nervous was becuase of an accident I had when I was little. But anyways, I've come a long ways, and the mare I'm training right now is no where near ready to be cantering yet, considering she's not even ready to be saddled yet, so that gives me more time to practice too. Since I've started training my mare that my other threat is about (June) I've ridden probably 5 days a week most weeks since then. I've put a lot of hours in these past few months, not saying I'm an expert rider by any means, but all the hands on stuff I've been doing has improved me tremendously. And since the only training I have done is colt starting that's all that I'm offering right now, I would never try to do any more extensive training, start an older horse, or refresh an old horse. I know what my limits are. I also inform anyone who brings me a horse that it could very well take me longer than a month to start it becuase I don't want to push to much to fast and hurt myself or mess up the horses training. If there was a better way for me to get experience I would, and believe me I've looked into it. But this is about the only way. I know I'm diving into something big but I'm also being cautious.
And agreed, their advice didn't offend me, only the way they said it

It sounds to me like you have putting a lot of work into your horses and yourself and that's respectable so I say good for you. And it's good you're not doing more than you can handle. And you've already started training so you can't exactly stop now. And I'm assuming you live somewhere a little remote with not many opportunities around? Like not many training barns or vets or anything as was suggested around? I say as long as you're being cautious and careful you may as well finish the horses you started. Not sure if I'd take on more though. But surely what you're doing can't be nearly as bad or dangerous as that 100 day mustang challenge thing. Saw it on on demand or Netflix or something and some of the people had never even trained a horse before yet had 100 days to take a mustang, caught fresh off the wild, and train it for i think a show...... they still do it i think but not sure if the tv show still runs. But to me that's way more stupid that what you're doing especially given mustangs are far different than most horses and probably more dangerous and unpredictable than a stallion. Speaking of which, if stallions are so bad then why are some of the top level Olypics horses and throughbred racers stallions???? Genuine question there. And surely some a more calm than others.

And yeah exactly. Not sure why everyone keeps assuming we disagree with the advice lol

 

[Chickerdoodle13]

Honestly, if you've never worked with foals, I would definitely suggest working with them before ever thinking of raising one yourself. They are really dangerous and they can be quite tricky health wise. In fact, I'm more afraid of dealing with foals than I am other horses! They are just really unpredictable and they can surprisingly do a lot of damage.

Not to mention the huge risk breeding mares are at during breeding (if you pursue live cover), during gestation (uterine torsions, twinning, etc), and during birth (dystocias, tears). I would definitely think very long and hard about whether the health of my mare was worth the risk of a baby that may or may not be worth anything as an athlete or riding animal.

I think part of getting in to a hobby or new field is learning to sit back and listen to advice. Granted that doesn't mean you have to let people walk all over you, but if you spend most of your time defending why you want to do this or that, you really aren't learning much. It's been a tough lesson to swallow throughout my schooling career, but by realizing that there are people out there who know a lot more than me, I have been able to open myself up to new views and new knowledge.

I second all the suggestions about learning more before entering the field of breeding or training on your own. Volunteer or work at a boarding stable. Take lessons. Follow a vet (mixed practice vet if you have to!). Join a 4-H club if you are of age. Go to horse shows and talk to people and learn from them. Make horsey contacts. There are tons of ways to get involved in horses that are more safe than training a green horse as a green owner. I did just that with my first mare, which is why I know how just how dangerous it can be!

The other thing that should be mentioned is that if you don't have a vet local who will treat horses, then you really need to think twice about breeding them. Horses are accident magnets and between that and things like colic, it is important to have a knowledgable vet nearby to take care of those things, as well as the general health management of horses. Not to mention you will also need dentists, shoers, etc.

 

[Weehopper]

For what it's worth..realistic is the only way you can successfully go with horses. Otherwise you are inviting disaster. A real good place for you to start gaining the experience you need, is by going to horse clinics. They are put on all over the country by some great trainers. Do a bit of research, and find one that is in line with your style. It probably ain't cheap, so start saving some money. Also, if I were going to breed that mare (and I wouldn't for a while), I would go for the color. Nicely colored palominos are highly desirable. No guarantees with that color though. Two palominos don't necessarily produce a palomino foal. I've known people who have become rather obsessed with trying to breed them.

....kinda like those black chickens. Anyway, Grasshopper, enjoy your horse and have fun growing with her.

 

[abigalerose]

Yep. I'm in a pretty remote area, the town I'm in is the biggest town with a population of 7,000. Of course that's not THAT small, but there aren't any boarding/training facilities near by. The closest town that's actually pretty big is about an hour or so from me, but they don't have much in the way of horse stuff. Not a lot of people around here are gonna take horses to a high dollar boarding facility or trainer when most people have their own land or can pasture board for a couple hundred dollars a month and there's plenty of local trainers (as in people like me who have taught themselves). The closest equine vet is 2 hours from me, now there are smaller vet clinics around that do deal with horses, but horses are not their sole focus. And the vet in my town takes horses but they are not good people. Solely focused on the money and not the well being of the animals. Heard lots of bad things and even experienced a little myself (charged me $60 just to tell me they wouldn't be able to stitch up a cut on a horse becuase the horse wouldn't hold still). There's a pretty good vet in the town over who treats horses, he's just a little hard to get ahold of sometimes. I'm sure there's a couple more it'd just be a bit longer commute. But yeah, everyone keeps saying to shadow an equine vet, apprentice a trainer, go to an equine school, and I'm sorry but we just don't have that here lol. I've looked before, I wanted to go to an equine school, but I'm not moving 4 hours away and killing myself to pay $50,000 a year for it, or making my parents go broke trying to pay for it. I wish I could, but I will just have to learn the old fashioned way. When I say all the trainers or people who give lessons around here are just like me and have learned things themselves/from their parents, I mean literally all of them are that way. There are a select few trainers that are pro reining or cutting trainers, but they're all 1.5 hours away or more and charge $900 and up a month. So it can be tricky getting professional lessons and a professionally trained horse, if I get into reining though that's what I'd like to save up and do.
I actually did do a mustang challenge when I was younger and in 4h, not one like on tv but we all got unhandled yearlings and had 90 days to halter break them and show them (that's right, our 4h leader, a well known trainer in our area with 40 or so years experience turned a bunch of 13 year olds loose with mustangs). So if you can't tell by now, my area is petty rural with all of the "horse people" generally being old fashioned Cowboys. And that has been the hardest thing to overcome, becuase I want to do things a little differently with natural horsemanship, ground work, Liberty, etc. and that's not what people do around here.
When I told my grandpa I wanted to get an older non-green horse to improve my riding on he said "you're doing really good with your mare you're training, I learned everything I know on an untrained horse"
And that's the reality of my situation. I don't have access to anything fancy or professional. I feel like I'm in the Wild West sometimes and not in Missouri.
Oh, when I was 16 I did try to find a vet I could follow, for all amimals, but none of them around here have any interest in doing that, in all honesty, most of them are pretty snobby.
And I'm 20 now, a little old for 4h.
I've been around mares and geldings, ages 1-20, quarter horses, mustangs, fox trotters, but so far no baby babies, and no stallions. Luckily my cousin is moving in with me in two weeks, and she's been into training for 10 years and she's been around everything, including having her own foals out of her own stallion, so anything I don't know (which yes, is a lot) she will be able to help me with. And I'm super grateful for that. If I was by myself I wouldn't be considering a stallion or breeding my mares. But I will have her help and even though she trains different than I do, she's very knowledgeable.
And breeding for color is the last thing I would do, although color is a big a deal around here, if I bred my own mare I'd be keeping the foal, and even if I couldn't campaign it id still keep it to trail ride, and I'd focus on personality, conformation, bloodlines and then color last. Lucky for me I do have nice colored mares, but that's not what's important to me.

But yes, there are vets who will treat horses, farriers, and people to float their teeth, I'm not worried about the well being of the horses but they're not people who will take apprentices.

 

[abigalerose]

Oh, and I have enough money saved to go to a clinic, I'm just waitin for someone to come to Missouri. It's the same with concerts. No one ever comes to Missouri. Or if they do they're all the way across the state and I'm not a good enough driver or brave enough to go 5 hours by myself.
I also don't have anyone in my family who's into horses, other than my cousin. I mean my grandpa likes them okay and knows how to ride, but if it were up to him there probably wouldn't be any horses at his house. And as for peers, I went to school with two girls who were into horses, one is actually a really nice girl who barrell races, I was even friends with her when we were young, but our families had a huge falling out. Me and her are still nice to each other but we would never do anything horse related together. And as for the other girl, well, that's the girl I already told y'all about that chased my mare around the round pen and scared the day lights out of her. A lot of people here are fine with that way of training, they think you should force the horse to do what you want, if it acts up show it who's boss, if it continues to act up it should be made into dog food. I think you should ask the horse first, then tell it, if it acts out of fear you need to slow down, not push harder, and not a single horse in the world deserves to be made into dog food.
I know it sounds like I'm just picking out all the bad here, and yeah sometimes things are discouraging and I wish I was born on a big horse ranch in Texas or Oklahoma and riding horses before I knew how to walk. But it's not all bad, I'm lucky to have a grandpa with a farm and my other grandpa left my parents his little farm and they're letting me live on it. I'm lucky to have parents who support my dream and a cousin who can help me out. It's not all bad but it is hard sometimes. I do appreciate all you're suggestions, and you guys have good ideas, I would love to go to an equine school and shadow a trainer, but that is not realistic.

 

[Peaches Lee]

Sometimes you have to travel to be a working student. I went to Texas for my WS experience (my area is similar to yours, but rich in western disciplines--I wanted to focus on dressage which is really not available where I live), I stayed with a family and shared a ride to the farm. Plenty of farms are open to WS type people, sometimes you just have to be bold and ask. Even if you go for 1 or 2 weeks (or a weekend), you'll learn so much. Lots of farms are looking for people to muck out stalls, bathe horses, tack them up, cool them down, lunge them, etc. And if you're good enough, maybe it would even turn into a paid situation. You said up thread you came here to learn about stallions, and really the best way to do that is to go to a farm that has stallions (not just one). No two stallions are alike. Being in a barn with several stallions is much different than a single stallion at a farm, it really hones your handling skills and ability to read all horses.