how much do i feed chicken scratch?

[cundare]

Sorry @cundare for my rant above. Did not intend to hijack/siderail the thread, but could not let that "opinion" go without response. I understand the tone of the post is likely something less than friendly or welcoming. I'm not wired well for polite social interaction, though I made effort to tone it down.

No, I didn't interpret your message as a rant, much less a "hijacking." I appreciate the time you took to provide your informed opinion, as I'm still just coming up to speed on this important topic.

When you make wet mash -- pellets or crumble mixes with water to a thick-oatmeal texture -- from a balanced feed it's good nutrition.

If this bird has had compromised health you might want to put him on chick starter for extra nutritional punch.

We once bought him a bag of "nutritionally complete pellets" -- grains, crab meal, etc. -- and he wouldn't go near it. The doves & sparrows loved it, though. So I like your idea of burying the pellets into a wet mixture. Time to look up some recipes.
e up to speed on this important topic.

 

[3KillerBs]

No, I didn't interpret your message as a rant, much less a "hijacking." I appreciate the time you took to provide your informed opinion, as I'm still just coming

We bought him a bag of "nutritionally complete pellets" -- grains, crab meal, etc. -- and he wouldn't go near it. The doves & sparrows loved it, though. So I like your idea of burying the pellets into a wet mixture. Time to look up some recipes.
e up to speed on this important topic.

Good luck with it.

I would say that a healthy animal won't starve itself when given good food to eat, but since this bird has a difficult background that might not apply.

Try always feeding him from the same bowl so that he learns that anything in the bowl is food.

 

[cundare]

Good luck with it.

I would say that a healthy animal won't starve itself when given good food to eat, but since this bird has a difficult background that might not apply.

Try always feeding him from the same bowl so that he learns that anything in the bowl is food.

A bowl? Not this guy. He prefers to peck his food from the ground. Put something in a plate or bowl and he won't go near. By the time he comes back, if he does, the doves have eaten everything. His favorite, though, is picking food out of a plant. We sprinkle cracked corn in the asparagus ferns and he runs over to have some fun pecking it out. Probably triggering some sort of primal instinct.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Burr mill? Like a coffee grinder set to "coarse"?

Well yes, but usually larger.

i have a hand crank one I use for grinding spices which is also suitable for doing 12 cups of coffee worth of beans at a time. Its an addiction.

I meant more like this (at minimum)

to clarify, this is NOT my hand crank. My hand crank spice mill is maybe 7" tall - and its FAR too small for making any quantity of chicken feed at a time. If you can find one of the mills that has the rollers side by side - long rods instead of a conical burr design - you can process grain MUCH faster - but the parallel bar designs tend to have a fixed pivot, so the end result is less regular in size. For chicken feed, it doesn't matter, for most other things it does - which is why they've fallen out of favor. That, and few people grind their own grains in quantity anymore.

 

[cundare]

With respect, this ^^^ gets more wrong than right. I STRONGLY recommend readers disregard the above advice.

The typical Scratch (let's pick on Purina for a moment, and we'll use their Flock Block as our reference, noting that it is nutritionally superior to their "Scratch" mix) is comprised of whole or cracked corn, grains, and typically with the addition of some seeds. In the case of the Flock Block, it comes in at 9% protein, 8% is more typical. That's less than half what USDA/NRCS recommends for meat bird breeds, and roughly half what they recommend for laying hens (pages 3, 4, 5). The hens stop laying because they are starving to death, converting muscle to energy, with real risk of long term damage to the internal organs, particularly the heart and brain. On request, I can link numerous studies establishing these figures in commercial meaties and commercial layers, going back decades.

Moreover, the composition of the the typical Scratch is corn, grains, and nuts. Science time. Every animal on the planet is made up, in part, of proteins. Proteins are comprised of amino acids. Typically, an animal can not create on its own every amino acid it needs to survive - some it has to get from its diet. These are called (most commonly) "Limiting" Amino Acids or Essential Amino Acids. "Limiting", because without which they can't build needed proteins, and will fail to thrive, ultimately dying. In the case of a chicken, the Limiting Amino Acids are (marked in bold are those most critical for our purposes):

Arginine
Cystine
Histidine
Isoleucine
Leucine
Lysine
Methionine
Phenylalanine
Threonine
Tryptophan
Tyrosine
Valine

Now, as it turns out, Corn is nutritionally deficient in Tryptophan and Lysine. Grains are usually defient in Threonine and Lysine. Nuts/Seeds are typically deficient in Lysine. So while it may be that here is enough "extra" Threonine in Corn and the Nuts/Seeds to make up for its deficiency in the grains chosen, and enough Tryptophan in the Nuts/Seeds and the Grains to cover its lack in the corn, all of them are low to almost absent in Lysine.

Lysine helps chickens regulate nitrogen, regulate carbohydrates, synthesize nucleotides, deposit calcium to make bones, absorb phosphorous, and a handful of other life critical functions. Like a sailor developing scurvy from lack of vitamin C, feeding an all Scratch or significant Scratch diet is so deficient in this critical, LIMITING Amino acid that chickens won't even be able to effectively use what protein and energy the Scratch does provide.

Now, as it turns out, poultry feed labels aren't well regulated. Most don't list their amino acid levels. A few will list a couple of them, usually Lysine and Methionine, because those are the two most critical, most limiting Amino Acids in a chicken's diet, and because (typically, due to the way many common forage and feed plants make amino acids) if you can get those right, you often get the right ratios on the others, as well.

Purina doesn't list those for its Scratch. Neither does Nutrena. But Purina does provide Lysine and Methionine numbers for its Flock Block. According to USDA/NRCS (link above), UGA, and numerous studies over the decades, you want to see a number around 0.5 - 0.65% (sources differ a bit) Methionine for Chickens, and around 1.20-1.40% Lysine. Remember how I said that corn, grains, and seeds/nuts were all deficient in Lysine??? Purina's Flock Block contains just 0.15% Methionine, and a mere 0.3% Lysine - less than 1/4 of what they need to survive.

SO, having devoted more time to this post than the prior respondent, I would ask that - in the future, before others provide similar response to a person who may know less about feeding chickens than yourself, come here to BYC for advice, either say nothing (a certain famous quote "Better to remain silent..." comes to mind), or be honest enough about your recommendation to offer it accurately, to wit:

"You can cause your hens to stop laying by starving them to death on an all Scratch diet. But don't do it for long."

There is no "one, right way" to raise chickens responsibly, but there are an awful lot of wrong ones. An All Scratch/mostly Scratch diet is among the definitively, provably wrong ways to do so. I don't have the patience to lay out what you got wrong in your summary of "layer feed", and have run out of the respect needed for it to be worthy of my time investment.

/end rant.

Well, I searched around for feeds that ostensibly offer sufficient levels of at least those two essential aminos, and about the closest I could find was Purina Flockraiser: 1.1% methionine & .55 lysine, along with 20% protein (no fat % spec'd).

Small Pet Select Chicken Layer was close, at 1%, .5, 18; but SPS Certified Organic, strangely enough, had things backward: 0.4% methionine & .8% lysine, as did Manna Pro's Gamebird/Showbird Crumbles @.45 & 1.2 and Organic Layer Pellets. Strange that so many mfrs seem to reverse the UDA's numbers. Can you point me to a primary source for those figures?

Anyway, it looks like Flockraiser is what I'll be trying next. Yesterday, I started supplementing the roo's diet with diced, cooked shrimp & chicken, and he flipped out, did his little "I found something delicious" dance, and gobbled it down. You'd think he'd found a grub! He's moulting right now, which I understands increases his protein requirements, so if he'll tolerate meat and shellfish, I'll try to supplement his plant-based diet with a little each day.

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Well, I searched around for feeds that ostensibly offer sufficient levels of at least those two essential aminos, and about the closest I could find was Purina Flockraiser: 1.1% methionine & .55 lysine, along with 20% protein (no fat % spec'd).

Small Pet Select Chicken Layer was close, at 1%, .5, 18; but SPS Certified Organic, strangely enough, had things backward: 0.4% methionine & .8% lysine, as did Manna Pro's Gamebird/Showbird Crumbles @.45 & 1.2 and Organic Layer Pellets. Strange that so many mfrs seem to reverse the UDA's numbers. Can you point me to a primary source for those figures?

Anyway, it looks like Flockraiser is what I'll be trying next. Yesterday, I started supplementing the roo's diet with diced, cooked shrimp & chicken, and he flipped out, did his little "I found something delicious" dance, and gobbled it down. You'd think he'd found a grub! He's moulting right now, which I understands increases his protein requirements, so if he'll tolerate meat and shellfish, I'll try to supplement his plant-based diet with a little each day.

Purina Flock Raiser (plus free choice oyster shell to meet additional - and variable - calcium needs of laying hens) is one of the top choices for typical management of typical backyard flocks.

and since you asked, politely, that I "source my sources", these are mentioend starting on page 3 of the USDA/NRCS document I linked. They are consistent with other studies I've read (I don't actually keep links to all these handy - having read them, I'm content to rely on the summaries now, unless I really need to get into the weeds).

Waldroup 2000 (everybody cites this, but I don't have a link)
Havenstien et al 2003
Williams et al 2000
Dozier et al 2008
Pope et al 2004
Lemme et al 2004
Awad et al 2014

 

[U_Stormcrow]

I'm also going to recommend you read this one, though USDA did NOT rely on it. Its an overview of the real cutting edge of poultry feed science right now.

In essence, here in the US, where we have LOTS of land suitable for growing grains etc which then become livestock feed, we don't tend to worry too much about essential amino acids, because we can afford to feed our chicks relatively high protein diets (and the higher CP helps offset lessened amino acid concentrations per unit of crude protein). As well, until recently many essential amino acids couldn't be readily synthesized, nor at commercial scale on cost effective bases. OTOH, our friends across the pond are not blessed with so much arable land, and have had to make due with lower protein feeds, supplimented with artificially produced amino acids, like L-Lysine, which are now available at scale and at reasonable price point.

This is a recent (2019) study on a decent number of birds (over 800) experimenting with how much dietary crude protein could be reduced and offset by artificial amino acid additions. Its important here in the US as well, on commercial scale because the higher the crude protein in the diet, the higher the Nitrogen in the feces. That means higher ammonia concentrations in the commercial battery hen buildings, and higher nitrogen content in the tons of waste they have to dispose of, in ways that won't find a path into local waterways...

same author (van Harn), well, one of many, did a study in 2008 about organic feeds and cost per yield of various partially organic diets. Its indirect, but they speculated that the loss in bird weight on a 100% organic diet was due to a lack of methionine, when they were unable to reach target levels while keeping within the other strictures of the study.

Cliff notes version? Birds raised on 80% organic feed were cheaper to raise than either 95% or 100% organic for any given live weight, and that increasingly organic % feed did not result in larger birds at a given age - in the case of 100% organic, the bird was smaller on average (assumedly due to limiting effects of methionine deficiency). Obviously, costs have changed a bit since 2008...


I'm trying to folow the science as it develops.

 

[cundare]

I'm also going to recommend you read this one, though USDA did NOT rely on it. Its an overview of the real cutting edge of poultry feed science right now.

In essence, here in the US, where we have LOTS of land suitable for growing grains etc which then become livestock feed, we don't tend to worry too much about essential amino acids, because we can afford to feed our chicks relatively high protein diets (and the higher CP helps offset lessened amino acid concentrations per unit of crude protein). As well, until recently many essential amino acids couldn't be readily synthesized, nor at commercial scale on cost effective bases. OTOH, our friends across the pond are not blessed with so much arable land, and have had to make due with lower protein feeds, supplimented with artificially produced amino acids, like L-Lysine, which are now available at scale and at reasonable price point.

This is a recent (2019) study on a decent number of birds (over 800) experimenting with how much dietary crude protein could be reduced and offset by artificial amino acid additions. Its important here in the US as well, on commercial scale because the higher the crude protein in the diet, the higher the Nitrogen in the feces. That means higher ammonia concentrations in the commercial battery hen buildings, and higher nitrogen content in the tons of waste they have to dispose of, in ways that won't find a path into local waterways...

same author (van Harn), well, one of many, did a study in 2008 about organic feeds and cost per yield of various partially organic diets. Its indirect, but they speculated that the loss in bird weight on a 100% organic diet was due to a lack of methionine, when they were unable to reach target levels while keeping within the other strictures of the study.

Cliff notes version? Birds raised on 80% organic feed were cheaper to raise than either 95% or 100% organic for any given live weight, and that increasingly organic % feed did not result in larger birds at a given age - in the case of 100% organic, the bird was smaller on average (assumedly due to limiting effects of methionine deficiency). Obviously, costs have changed a bit since 2008...


I'm trying to folow the science as it develops.

Very interesting, Stormcrow. I think you & I have similar approaches to researching technical topics. I just pulled my well-worn copy of "Composition of Foods" so that I can see precisely what's in the food I'm giving my little feathered family member.

Since you confirm that Flock Raiser, the feed with the best-looking specs I found, seems to be a general favorite, I'll be clicking the "Buy it Now" button shortly. In the interim, I'll get into the habit of supplementing the little guy's diet with a little meat and fish.

Thanks for your "rants"! You can't imagine how helpful they've been. I've gone from being completely clueless, to being halfway competent in just a day. I do appreciate the time you took to write these lengthy messages.

Don

 

[U_Stormcrow]

and since you got me searching (honestly, I don't mind when people call me on my claims - its why I link sources, sometimes I've read it wrong or misunderstood) I found this meta-study gathering numerous other studies regarding essential amino acid levels and effects on chickens. I saved this one, its a good find.

My suspicion about the low methionine numbers in the Organic feeds parallels that of the 2008 study, above. Its hard to find good vegetable sources of methionine, and likely harder still to find good organic versions. Sesame seeds (high fat!) , Sunflower seeds (but WAY HIGH FAT!), Soy (and lots of people on organic diets demand soy free), alfalfa meal, quinoa, and (some) oats are decent sources. Easier to get it from animal sources, but harder to get organic certification on them. Also, some people don't want chicken blood meal, or menhaden fish meal, in their chicken feed....

 

[U_Stormcrow]

Very interesting, Stormcrow. I think you & I have similar approaches to researching technical topics. I just pulled my well-worn copy of "Composition of Foods" so that I can see precisely what's in the food I'm giving my little feathered family member.

Since you confirm that Flock Raiser, the feed with the best-looking specs I found, seems to be a general favorite, I'll be clicking the "Buy it Now" button shortly. In the interim, I'll get into the habit of supplementing the little guy's diet with a little meat and fish.

Thanks for your "rants"! You can't imagine how helpful they've been. I've gone from being completely clueless, to being halfway competent in just a day. I do appreciate the time you took to write these lengthy messages.

Don

The recognition means a lot, thank you Don. I figure if someone shows up here asking for help earnestly, least I can do (if its a subject I can help with - plenty of forums here I rarely dip my toes into) is offer them the respect of a nuanced answer, and provide some basis for my opinions.

There's no other good way to determine whether an anonymous source on the internet is actually knowledgeable/helpful or merely entertaining (as reflected in their accumulation of "likes")

/edit and in the interest of full disclosure, I don't actually feed my own flock in accordance with the general "backyard flock recommend" I typically offer here - but neither my flock size nor my management practice is typical of backyard flocks, and I'm knowingly taking some risks I would not recommend for persons keeping individual birds over longer time frames than I do.