Impacted Gizzard or Heart Failure?

[Pyxiqueen]

I inherited my chickens with the house we bought so I have no background on Ginger Henny. She has had ascites for 2 months and I have drained 45-50cc's off of her twice in the last month to try to help her. I took her to the vet and she said it was probably heart disease. Her comb is not blue or purple- but a beautiful red. She is lethargic and picking at food. She does go out to range but is having a hard time keeping up with the flock and tonight she layed in the run while the others ate.
The vet did an x Ray and after comparing it to other X-rays on this forum I realize that her gizzard looks impacted! I asked about it in the vet office and the vet said it was just the stones she was eating. ??? Can an impacted gizzard cause ascites? The first 2 pictures are her. The last picture i found on a thread on impacted gizzards (see how my chicken has waaay more stones/oyster shell? Should I try using an oil drench? I'm a bit frustrated the vet didn't see a giant gizzard PACKED full of stones (look behind her knee in the X-ray) Will she need antibiotics too? Can I get antibiotics in oregon without a vet? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

 

[Alaskan]

Usually an impacted crop you will feel up front at the base of her neck.

When impacted it will be all big and swollen, and if you gently squish it and tilt her forward (think pouring out some tea from a tea kettle ), nasty smelling ooze will come out of her mouth.

A crop can get super large at the end of a day, but first thing in the morning, before they start eating, it should be empty or very close to empty.

As for all of that fluid. ... it could also be from internal laying, or an infection of some kind.

You have worked extremely hard to try to help that sweet girl.... but at this point, I am sorry to say, I do not think there is any hope.

So sorry.

 

[Wyorp Rock]

Hi @Pyxiqueen Welcome To BYC

Have you checked her crop to make sure it's functioning properly?

Check her crop at night when she goes to bed, then first thing in the morning before eating/drinking anything. The crop should be full at night and empty/flat in the morning.

My thought is, if your hen had eaten before the xray was taken, then she should have food in the crop which would show up.
Crop issues do not cause Ascites. Crop issues can be a symptom of Ascites and internal laying/reproductive disorders. Fluid, egg masses, tumors, etc. can essentially block/restrict the intestines enough so the bird cannot properly eliminate waste, this would cause the crop to back up. Sometimes you may find a bird drooling, going off food/water and the crop remains full and turns sour because very little is being processed.

The only way to get the crop and waste moving would be to reduce the fluid/blockage in the abdomen so the intestines can work properly.

Draining does work for a while and can give relief. Be careful draining too much fluid at once, it's best to drain a small amount, then poke extra holes, place her on clean dry bedding and let gravity work for you.

I'm very sorry she is not doing well. If she does not make it, consider having the vet necropsy her or send her in. If you have the stomach for it, investigate yourself or at least have them show you what's inside.

@TwoCrows and @speckledhen both can tell you about their experiences with Ascites, the heartbreak and the outcome.
Their comments start on post#19 of this thread https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...luid-and-now-in-respiratory-distress.1119656/

*****WARNING GRAPHIC PHOTOS*****
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...nd-eyp-very-graphic-necropsy-pictures.821240/
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...-need-of-some-help-and-guidance.853726/page-2
http://www.backyardchickens.com/t/1154532/egg-yolk-peritonitis#post_18103856

 

[Pyxiqueen]

Her crop is normal. It's her gizzard I'm worried about.

 

[speckledhen]

I agree with Alaskan and WyorpRock. Ascites and crop issues are symptoms of a more sinister issue, generally. Crops usually malfunction as an outward symptom of an inner problem you cannot see. Ascites can be a result of internal laying and/or egg yolk peritonitis, heart failure or liver failure or other disease.

 

[Pyxiqueen]

Somehow I kept writing crop wen I meant gizzard. I realize her outcome is bleak, but I'm still going to try to do something. I'all let you know how it turns out.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi

The above is an excellent post by Wyorp Rock.
The only thing I kind of disagree with, is removing just a little fluid which seems to be what you have done so far and the body is probably replacing it faster than you are removing it. I would be aiming to drain at least 200-300 mls to see any benefit at all from the draining. It is not unusual for there to be half a litre of fluid in a hen that distended, so draining about half of that would be a reasonable step.

I think you have been extremely brave so far to try to drain it yourself (I know how scary it is sticking a needle into something if you are not trained for it) and hopefully you will feel a little more confident each time. Be careful to ensure the site is cleaned with an antibacterial agent before you drain her again to prevent an infection being introduced.

The fact that your hen's comb is red says to me that this is almost certainly internally laying. A red comb means the bird is ovulating. Unfortunately I think it may be a long time since you had an egg out of this girl because when each yolk is released from the ovary, instead of travelling into the oviduct, they are dropping into her abdominal cavity and collecting in the bottom, causing the swelling. The yolks slowly solidify, with the fluids leaching out. There is no means for the body to remove them as they are outside of the digestive tract and the more the mass of them builds up, the more pressure is placed upon the hen's heart lungs and digestive tract and hips.

The gizzard should always contain stones by the way, that is the purpose of it, so I would not be concerned about that and as Wyorp Rock says, there will be so much pressure on her intestines, that food will have difficulty travelling down through her system from her crop.... effectively she is backed up.

Long term, she will continue to ovulate and the problem of more eggs adding to the mass will continue unless you are able to prevent ovulation. I understand that some people with hens like this have had hormonal implants (like birth control for humans) to prevent ovulation and it has been successful but is expensive and needs to be repeated every 3-6 months....assuming you can find a vet who will do it. In my experience, hens that are moulting and in dormant winter mode improve dramatically (the mass of solidified yolks will however remain) because they are not ovulating, so my thinking would be to try to trigger her to moult by restricting her exposure to daylight ie keeping her in the dark (a cardboard box with holes works well) so that she only has a few hours out in daylight each day and restricting her food. I can't say for sure if it will trigger a moult but it may also trigger her to go broody which again will prevent ovulation and it costs nothing to try. If you can keep her somewhere that she cannot hear the other chickens out playing then she should remain quite calm and sleepy in the box until you let her out.

I hope this gives you some ideas on how to go forward and a little hope. She is extremely unlikely to ever lay eggs normally again and some of the swelling will remain as the only way to remove the solidified yolks would be via surgery which would be very expensive and risky, so the best you can hope for is to prevent things getting worse, ease the worst of the pressure by removing more fluid and hope to stop her ovulating so that she enjoys a longer prognosis than the current situation.

Good luck

Barbara

 

[Pyxiqueen]

Thanks for all the informational links. Her crop seems to be fine. I kept saying crop, but I meant gizzard. I edited the original post. We gave her several treatments a month ago for egg bind and after I drained the fluid off found no "hard swellings" in her abdomen. This is all so peculiar. After I drained her last month She perked up and was fine (still swollen - dragging her hind end a little though) until a few days ago. I'll try to post a picture of her posture. But yeah.... her abdomen is huge. I was ready to help her move onto today, but I may give her one more day of examination and treatment and see if I can turn it around. Thanks for all the input. I see that it's dismal, but I'' still going to try.

 

[Pyxiqueen]

Thanks Barbara,
I'm an acupuncturist so needles are my life.
It's different using giant needles to pull liquid out but that part isn't so bad. It's not having a clear diagnosis to work with.
I do make sure to sterilize the area before working. She seems to enjoy being drained and lays very still and perks right up afterwards. I will try draining more fluid off today but the vet told me to be careful that I don't cause her to become hypovolemic from pulling too much fluid.. ???
Thanks for the input i'll let you know how it turns out.

 

[rebrascora]

Sorry, I have just reread the thread and realised that you have removed 45-50cc and not mls as I originally thought which is the sort of volume I would have expected. Was she noticeable improved for a few days after each draining?