International Black Copper Marans Thread - Breeding to the SOP

[Bantambird]

Have you found that some forms of autosomal red affect the entire wing bow (and hackles), while some only affects the lower edge of the wing bow?
I ask because with my SDWs I’ve had more evenly coloured males with a slight straw tinge, or mostly white silver males with deep red around the edges of their wing bow.

I got the hackle color evened out quite a while ago, but I do end up with the wing bow edges still showing the darker autosomal red sometimes even now. They are separate, for sure.

 

[wrathsfarm]

her shape is looking very promising!

She's absolutely stunning in my eyes. They both have that wider stance I'm not used to also.

The wife loves little man. So they both get spoiled just a touch more here.

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

I got the hackle color evened out quite a while ago, but I do end up with the wing bow edges still showing the darker autosomal red sometimes even now. They are separate, for sure.

I have often wondered if the wing bow edges is similar/the same as the genes which give the females salmon breasts in the recessive patterns. This would explain why they show up long after you fix the hackle and general wing bow colour.

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

She's absolutely stunning in my eyes. They both have that wider stance I'm not used to also.

The wife loves little man. So they both get spoiled just a touch more here.

Have you considered breeding the pullet to your BCMs when older? All the pullets would be pure gold (coppers), which you could breed back you your BCMs to introduce the wide stance and low tails of Bantambird’s silver line without affecting colour too much.

This might dilute your BCMs a bit so you’d have to monitor each crossing but would probably be worth sacrificing for improved type.

I’d stress NOT to do this the other way around, as you don’t want all the autosomal red gems of your coppers entering your silvers’ gene pool. I did this with welsummers once, and it was the worst decision I ever made breeding them. The funny thing is that I didn’t use any of these birds in my own flock, but a cockerel that was bred ended up being used by my neighbour who owns the sister line of my flock. This is why my two new cockerels have viable AR.

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

Have you considered breeding the pullet to your BCMs when older? All the pullets would be pure gold (coppers), which you could breed back you your BCMs to introduce the wide stance and low tails of Bantambird’s silver line without affecting colour too much.

This might dilute your BCMs a bit so you’d have to monitor each crossing but would probably be worth sacrificing for improved type.

I’d stress NOT to do this the other way around, as you don’t want all the autosomal red gems of your coppers entering your silvers’ gene pool. I did this with welsummers once, and it was the worst decision I ever made breeding them. The funny thing is that I didn’t use any of these birds in my own flock, but a cockerel that was bred ended up being used by my neighbour who owns the sister line of my flock. This is why my two new cockerels have viable AR.

An alternative would be breeding any pullets produced in the initial BCM/BSM cross to their S/s+ brother with the best type. Then take the best obviously s+/s+ cockerel and the good pullets from F1 and F2 and introduce into your BCM breeding plans.

 

[wrathsfarm]

Have you considered breeding the pullet to your BCMs when older? All the pullets would be pure gold (coppers), which you could breed back you your BCMs to introduce the wide stance and low tails of Bantambird’s silver line without affecting colour too much.

This might dilute your BCMs a bit so you’d have to monitor each crossing but would probably be worth sacrificing for improved type.

I’d stress NOT to do this the other way around, as you don’t want all the autosomal red gems of your coppers entering your silvers’ gene pool. I did this with welsummers once, and it was the worst decision I ever made breeding them. The funny thing is that I didn’t use any of these birds in my own flock, but a cockerel that was bred ended up being used by my neighbour who owns the sister line of my flock. This is why my two new cockerels have viable AR.

No, I haven't. I don't know genetics enough to try this yet.

I thought it would be bad to introduce the silver to gold. Much like gold to silver which I see a lot of in the limited people I've found near me with BBS Silvers. Mind you these are Craigslist ads not breeders like @Bantambird.

I've yet to find any breeders other than her which don't really matter now that I've got the best.

That's all I really know.

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

I have my first Black Copper Maran rooster and he is 5 months old. His crow is very unique. It is your typical crow and then turns into a trill. Is that normal for this breed of roosters?

I have never found that particular breeds have consistent crows other than the heaviest breeds being louder and deeper than others, though closely related roosters often have similar crows.

I’d say the reason is more likely his young age. His vocal chords are not as mature as they will be and his lung capacity is not large enough for a full call.

It may likely inprove with age but if it doesn’t it should be nothing to worry about.

 

[wrathsfarm]

An alternative would be breeding any pullets produced in the initial BCM/BSM cross to their S/s+ brother with the best type. Then take the best obviously s+/s+ cockerel and the good pullets from F1 and F2 and introduce into your BCM breeding plans.

So I'm introducing type and tail, and breeding back out the silver?

 

[wrathsfarm]

I have my first Black Copper Maran rooster and he is 5 months old. His crow is very unique. It is your typical crow and then turns into a trill. Is that normal for this breed of roosters?

Would love to see pics of him...
My one boy has his crow that trails off at the end.. it follows his exhale. I should video it.

 

[BlueTheBrahma]

No, I haven't. I don't know genetics enough to try this yet.

I thought it would be bad to introduce the silver to gold. Much like gold to silver which I see a lot of in the limited people I've found near me with BBS Silvers. Mind you these are Craigslist ads not breeders like @Bantambird.

I've yet to find any breeders other than her which don't really matter now that I've got the best.

That's all I really know.

I would recommend it if you fancy the work (not that it’s too much) and the Silvers have better type than the coppers. There’s a few ways it could work but I’ve outlined the simplest.

I’m happy to outline the plans in more detail.

I’m almost certain that breeding silvers into golds is far less dangerous than golds into silver. @Bantambird I’d be interested if you think otherwise, but appreciate you are only familiar with the other way mostly familiar with silvers only.

The thing is that any AR shows up over silver without dilution genes as there is no pigment to hide it. The gold gene is responsible for most of the gold in a copper, with AR depending the red colour desired in marans. The main risk is breeding in any dilutors carried by the silvers, but they could be bred out much more easily than they are to breed pure into silvers.