Lavender-Based Leghorn Breeding & Improvement Discussion

[ChicKat]

Hi Jac Jac
You need to show us picts, you know......we are all waiting.

Your post makes be begin to wonder things about how much the same or different our lavender birds express their lavenders.
First gen lavender that came from splits, next gen lav from pure lav -- and how many generations before lav begins to fade to just an off white.

Jac Jac, your cuties are lucky that you are patient. My set have seemingly decided that the few post molt eggs are their quota for 2019 and they are on vacation. Haven't had an egg from those two since the 14th.

 

[Tbird84]

@HaikuHeritageFarm how goes the coop modifications?

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

@HaikuHeritageFarm how goes the coop modifications?

My coop is so ghetto. It's a chainlink dog kennel with tarps zip-tied to the sides under a portable Shelter Logic carport canopy. We went back and forth and back and forth about design and since I'm looking to move soon I decided to stick with something super portable that will be easy to relocate and hold birds while I build on my permanent spot. It's in the backyard with my four dogs patrolling so we've had zero predator issues and I don't anticipate it being a problem, luckily!

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

He is a gorgeous fellow. I would certainly find room for a boy like that. Off color subject, I really really would like to have columbian Leghorns someday as well....that may be another thread.

Entirely relevant to the conversation since Colombian + Lavender = "Coronation".

It's a beautiful pattern, both in black and lavender!

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

Happy Friday everyone! Sorry to have been so quiet this week, lots going on over here including looking for a new property for the farm and writing up a business plan to facilitate the loan I need.

HOWEVER, somehow in the midst of all that I still managed to come across my new Isabella poster boy. Check out this hunk o' hot chicken.

I believe this is an Italian bird, it was shared in the Facebook Isabella group but the one who posted doesn't seem to be the owner. I have to admit, I was leaning in hard towards the silver DW-based lavenders, but THIS guy...

Dang. I have half a mind to jump through all the hoops to import because I have *never* seen a European lavender-based Leghorn (Italianer) with the bad feather quality I'm seeing regularly (now that I'm looking for it) on American birds. This guy is zipped up TIGHT and they all have that super sleek, tight feathering I'd like to see in my own birds.

Reviewing Moonshiners notes of how "the shredder" gene was introduced via lavender orpingtons, I wonder more what exactly we're up against. How de we breed this out? Hatch everything, grow EVERYTHING out to the point that we're certain feather quality is good, and just cull ruthlessly on feather quality?

As I mentioned elsewhere, the birds I'll have to hatch from this spring (as of NOW) are siblings and I am concerned about feather issues. With this inbreeding coefficient, those issues would be extra locked in. That makes me feel like it's not even worth it.

UNLESS, I hatch everything and am able to grow out enough birds to find individuals that don't exhibit the trait. Would breeding from those birds ensure the next generation is free of the trait?

I need to do a lot more research on this. I believe it may be priority numero uno now.

 

[ChicKat]

Thought those were your birds Haiku and was going to say they sure are growing out nicely!!!!

wow..if you have chickens exhibiting that permanent pin-feather...you probably shouldn't use them to breed. You have only seen it in males right? It's tough -- You may even do well taking one step back from Isabel and going for splits to get rid of bad feathering....

Meanwhile, yeah the guy in the picture above is about perfect for an Isabel coloration wise...and also for a Leghorn type wise -- Experts please weigh in I don't have tons of Leghorn experience.

ETA - he may be a silver. He does look really non-muddy -- and I think that the 'dirt' look was what made the Moonshiner first consider going silver in his Isabel ideas. The tell would be the white wing triangle - showing up under the wing -bar. His warm colors could be autosomal red pushing out the reds that then got diluted by lavender gene.

 

[Love-my-girls]

New Thread --

We need this thread to discuss the challenges, successes and subtleties we encounter as we pursue these genetics. We're here to talk about all the facets of improving our stock.

The Moonshiner had just put up some beautiful Rose Comb Isabel picts and there are some questions I want to ask.

HaikuHeritage Farm has rounded up some Isabels and wants to go forward., and will post some picts.

Here are the picts. that the Moonshiner posted -- to save jumping to that thread I'll link in the picts. url

Really looking forward to what everyone has to say -- put their 2cents in - weigh in -- opine -- Y'all know the drill!

Beautiful birds!

 

[Tbird84]

Entirely relevant to the conversation since Colombian + Lavender = "Coronation".

It's a beautiful pattern, both in black and lavender!

Entirely relevant to the conversation since Colombian + Lavender = "Coronation".

It's a beautiful pattern, both in black and lavender!

I HAD be contemplating making a coronation Leghorn

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

So from what I can tell, there are at least two feather quality issues that are associated with lavender that occur in our Isabel Leghorns:

• Wing Patch: permanent pin feathers in cock birds, sex-limited as it seems only to occur in males
• Fray (fr): The "shredder" gene that produces poor feather quality in both males and females.

Unfortunately, the wing patch trait in particular will likely be very difficult to breed out as it seems to be a recessive trait that is only expressed in males so it would take a lot of test breeding and culling on it to eliminate the problem, or at least reduce its occurrence, since hens may carry the trait but won't exhibit it.

Simply breeding back to browns won't eliminate this problem, only mask it for a generation. Since we're seeing the problem in birds so closely related to the original stock, I think it's safe to assume it is probably floating around in all of our Isabel Leghorns so it's definitely something to watch for.

Also of note, this is an issue that is expressed in varying degrees... it's not an all or nothing thing and a bird may exhibit just a couple of feathers with this problem or it may affect the entire shoulder area.

Ok, that's what I've gathered from today's reading, most of which came from a thread on The Coop (Here: http://www.the-coop.org/forums/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=88090&page=all). Any additional thoughts?

Secondary to these mutations, I personally feel like we additionally have some of the overall soft feathering expression left from the Orpingtons, and breeding for overall hard feathers is another important area to select for.

 

[ChicKat]

Thanks for the link HaikuHeritageFarms.

Regarding your poster boy Isabel, I think that he is right up there with the very best examples of Isabel coloration -- but I really like all the Isabel coloration. When I was out in the coops today it occurs to me that when I analyze that guy I think I see the results of these specific genes in his clear pattern and nice colors.

• Obviously he must have two lavender genes
• Based on the white wing triangle I'm going to say Silver on the S-Locus
• Based on the crisp pattern I'm going to say homozygous e+ for e-Locus
• and some of the warm colors are from Autosomal Red - but I think based partly on the examples from Sigrid Van Dort's page on Ar gene that this cockerel is heterozygous, therefore Ar+/ar

So IMO

is
e+/e+ S/S Ar+/ar lav/lav --

along with what other genes he may have -- obviously yellow leg genes and white earlobe genes for example. The hens with him also look very nice....the hen on the left -- is kind of built like a tank -- she looks like she has particularly sturdy legs and wide distance between her legs as well as very 'fleshy'.

okay, maybe Ar+/Ar+ -- what would y'all guess? Based on that middle row of cockrels from post #67 -- now that I wrote heterozygous for Ar+ I'm changing my mind and saying homozygous and carries 2 autosomal red genes...and I think the last one in that middle row shows golden tons in saddles and hackles but still retains white wing triangle..it may be difficult to discern from post #67...at any rate, that's what I would want to put in the "recipe" for a cockerel like the photo.

That's better, because lav/lav dilutes both the red and the black. So the black in the above diagram would be lav and the reds would be lighter. Kind of like putting in Ar+/Ar+ in the mix, only to dilute it with lav/lav.