Lavender-Based Leghorn Breeding & Improvement Discussion

[ChicKat]

take a look at this:
Here's the Leghorn "Type"

Although I'm the only one here who would have this bird as an ideal out-cross for my program (color-wise) -- Look at the perfest proportions for a Leghorn. Long back and of the entire bird -- 50% is his tail right? Nice rounded breast and low angle to the tail.
Found this on the internet while looking for something else.
So artist can make the perfect picture -- and this next one is a photograph of a real chicken

So similar IMO to the artist rendition.
Also encountered something about lavender and the feather shreder:
"I have seen some ‘otherwise-beautiful’ birds that have had the unfortunate ‘tail shredder’ problem. The good news is that the link can be broken and it is possible to produce lavenders with normal-feathered tails."
article by Grant Brereton is here:
https://poultrykeeper.com/poultry-breeding/the-lavender-gene/
also he says in the article:
In Holland and Germany they have a color called ‘Isabel,’ which is created when the lavender gene is added to Partridge (or a similar variety such wild type or double-lacing).

The nomenclature does vary and not all agree what ‘Isabel’ should look like. And, on some parts of the Continent, what we know as Millefleur in the UK is actually referred to as ‘Porcelain.’"
I think that article was referenced in Miami Leghorns thread:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/threads/duckwing-leghorns.1291747/page-9#post-21979168
really an interesting quest going on in that thread.
...................
ETA some more type shots/images to help us improve the look of our birds


https://www.leghorn-italiener.com/standard

 

[Tbird84]

That artist rendition is pretty spectacular. I love those colors. The 2nd bird is almost a mirror for type. Beautiful and something to strive for.

I remember reading that particular quote about the shredder gene when I was researching how to overcome it. The closest I've come in figuring out the why, was in the article I posted near the beginning of the thread. We are just going to have to cull hard. So with these guys I'd assume breed and cull for feather quality above finer points until we can get a consistency in the feathers. Then move on to the other points. @ChicKat, what order would you place your culling requirements?

 

[ChicKat]

Tbird84 - That's real food-for-thought (Good kind of food after Thanksgiving day).
IMO - priorities are going to be based on a couple of things.


One is the starting point* of the flock you have. (Kind of like the hand you are dealt )

Right now, I'm at a very lucky point. The color is there, and the type is pretty good -- I'd like to put my male in a same-angle photo to those two above and see if he needs length, or ?? to be improved Leghorn type. In the past I'd always thought of Leghorns as a more light and 'flighty' looking bird, but they seem in recent years to have more 'heft'. Is my guy too stocky from his Legbar ancestors -- or is he OK. So refining type, and....refining color. The approach I would take is exactly what you are saying -- cull very hard, and only keep the best. And if the lavender fades, then introduce an out-cross to enhance the color.

On the other hand...back in the days of Cream Legbars -- all the Legbars seemingly had short backs and very high tail angles. (See my avatar). There was always a huge struggle to try to get something resembling a decent comb on the males -- so I was always looking for a lower tail angle and smaller or medium crests on all the birds to resolve those two glaring problems. IT takes a lot of time and a lot of refinement and a lot of chicks...and progress is incremental.

* Going back to the idea of starting point, breeder advice says something like "always start with excellent stock" -- What they don't put into the mix is the availability of that stock if it even exists. For our part all of us working with a Leghorn derived bird, owe a debt of gratitude to Buddy Henry. From the list of his efforts and what he did to make the Isabel - he worked through a lot of generations and a lot of birds. Post 3 of this thread:
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...uckoo-barred-project-and-genetic-dis.1153068/

So in getting good stock, we are all lucky because they would trace back to that breeding effort to some degree

Another one is the ending point. For mine - it was the barred (cuckoo) Isabella. So that part is achieved, and the chicks are autosexing as I wished. (Although this current generation hasn't had chicks as yet, I know that the genes are in place to pass their own autosexing on to their offspring). I'm so lucky that this male is sweet and docile and they must be -- I'm trying to think -- around 2-years old now. Seems like the older the males got in SOME Legbars the more they got cranky and some even mean, this guy doesn't show that. Next up--- the guy who had them for the past year was impressed with their egg-laying ability. Upon return from molt (or are they still molting a little?) they have only produced 2-3 dozen eggs between the two hens...and about Nov. 14 was the last egg. So does that mean no more eggs until daylight hours lengthen and they will be slackers until February?

So -- ending point - I want best possible egg production and healthy vigorous birds that are lavender crele (thus for double barred, autosexing)-- This gene pool is pretty tiny now...because I dispersed all the birds I had I am extremely lucky to get this trio back, but only 3 of them in the world at this moment. Scary if something were to happen to the male it would set back the progress. For us though we will be reguired I think to have periodic out-crossing to maintain our best lavender coloration -- so close breeding will always have a refresher from time to time --kind of built into the mix. Probably too there are some years that we can seek out our ideal out-cross.....Like mine is the Crele Leghorn type above ---

Thanks for making me think of my 'breeding plan'. Most important near-term is to increase the population of this 'variety'. (So there are more than 3 of them in the world).
ETA - who else will put up some goals for us to incorporate in our plans?

 

[ChicKat]

Question for you Leghorn experts:
This site says Leghorns are soft-feathered
https://poultrykeeper.com/chicken-breeds/
In this thread
https://www.backyardchickens.com/th...her-types-and-genetics-please-someone.778587/
Post 2 puts Leghorns in the hard-feather category.

One indication that I've heard of is that if the chicken has a fluffy powder puff butt then soft feather and if the wings cross and nearly meet under the tail -- (Like OEGB) then hard feathered.
Once I had an Ideal 238 and her feathers were definitely much 'crisper' than my Legbars.
Are Leghorns hard or soft feathered those of you with expertise? Or are some of them a bit of both.
If fluffy butt is the decider, I may say that I have a lavender crele Legbar rather than a Leghorn.

Then again, since they aren't recognized by the APA they don't really exist do they (due to their colors being not accepted).
ETA just found this:

Isn't that a great photo example. It's from down-under, here's the site:
https://www.adelaidechickensittingservice.com/blog/hard-feather-soft-feather-chickens

 

[Tbird84]

Hmmm. Now that is an interesting thought. I don't know the genetics behind hard versus soft feather, but some of my light browns do seem to fall into the more of a hard feather category. Though not as hard a feather as a Rhode Island red. Is there an in between? I have some young cockeral browns that have pretty high tucked wings that nearly touch right now. Waiting to see how they fill out, as their sire does not have that quality.

 

[ChicKat]

This link from the thread by Miami Leghorn has genetics (tons of genetics) on feather genes -- about 1/3 of the way scrolled down talks about hard/soft feathering.

http://www.edelras.nl/chickengenetics/mutations2.html#gen_mut_feathtype

What you mention too, I wonder what the feathering for heterozygous (one hard feather gene, one soft feather gene) would produce. And -- it kind of seems like it could be possible to have both soft and hard feathered Leghorns -- so all the people who spoke up are right. That feather link is way too complex for what I'm working on now -- It also makes me wonder a bit about slow-feathering and fast feathering. Add to that, someone said there is loose feathering and tight feathering -- so you get geometrical options the more choices you put in the mix.

That's another reason to focus on just one or two traits to 'work on'.

 

[ChicKat]

Here's more...I had put a sort of a 'blog' or something out there and dropped off updating when I had my first splits as juveniles.

One thing that troubled me from the parent females of the splits is that there were two different Phenotypes. One set looked more Duck wing like, and the other set looked more Columbian gene influenced, or I guess when Columbian pattern is diluted by lavender it is called 'Coronation' in some breed.

The front female has a darker body and lighter hackles...the rear female is the opposite and has a lighter body and darker hackles. It was a mystery before -- and now I think it is a clear genetic difference in those females that I didn't know way back then in was it 2015?
Now it seems so amazingly simple.
Went to Henk's chicken calculator and tried out my theory:

1. start with wild type hen as shown
2. on the lavender locus put two recessive lavenders lav/lav
3. on the Columbian locus put either Co/co or Co/Co -- didn't seem to change the image and voila:

Left is s+ hen right is S
There's her pattern...and I guess that she is e+ but possibly the cream of the female body would be removed with a different locus. SO -- for the Duckwing look of the Isabel which is what I wanted, versus the Columbian (Coronation?) look -- I would select out the Columbian gene. I have to go out and inspect my two now -- because I haven't paid much attention to the differences shown by the above photo (barring gene also tends to lighten/dilute things a bit)..... It seems so obvious now and it was such a mystery back then. Astonishing how you can keep learning stuff about genetics.
Just to be clear, remove the Columbian from that genetic set up on the chicken calculator and you get

This the pattern of the chicken in the foreground....difference is just the Columbian gene in the calculation.

 

[ChicKat]

After I posted that Crele Leghorn with the nearly completely horizontal back and tail, I found this pict

From a book that is 99-cents on Kindle. It's titled "The Leghorns" -
now maybe we all can feel better about our own flock's tail angles??

You can get this downloaded to your phone or computer for 99-cents It's old of course...but filled with cool stuff (have yet to read - just skimmed through to look at illustrations.

somehow I found this going through Miami Leghorn's thread referenced above I think. For 99-cents - just had to share.

 

[Tbird84]

After I posted that Crele Leghorn with the nearly completely horizontal back and tail, I found this pict
View attachment 1970511
From a book that is 99-cents on Kindle. It's titled "The Leghorns" -
now maybe we all can feel better about our own flock's tail angles??

You can get this downloaded to your phone or computer for 99-cents It's old of course...but filled with cool stuff (have yet to read - just skimmed through to look at illustrations.
View attachment 1970512
View attachment 1970513
somehow I found this going through Miami Leghorn's thread referenced above I think. For 99-cents - just had to share.

When going through my standard for Leghorns, the illustration looks quite a bit different, imo, to what is being rewarded in the shows. The show birds have a more exaggerated tail, hens have a squatter stance with a fan tail. They just don't seem to have that sleekness anymore. Maybe it's the current preference. Seems that if you breed for a shape like that, you loose alot of their utility abilities. I'm getting away from the point here. I do feel better about my tails now

 

[Tbird84]

Here's more...I had put a sort of a 'blog' or something out there and dropped off updating when I had my first splits as juveniles.

One thing that troubled me from the parent females of the splits is that there were two different Phenotypes. One set looked more Duck wing like, and the other set looked more Columbian gene influenced, or I guess when Columbian pattern is diluted by lavender it is called 'Coronation' in some breed.

The front female has a darker body and lighter hackles...the rear female is the opposite and has a lighter body and darker hackles. It was a mystery before -- and now I think it is a clear genetic difference in those females that I didn't know way back then in was it 2015?
Now it seems so amazingly simple.
Went to Henk's chicken calculator and tried out my theory:

1. start with wild type hen as shown
2. on the lavender locus put two recessive lavenders lav/lav
3. on the Columbian locus put either Co/co or Co/Co -- didn't seem to change the image and voila:

Left is s+ hen right is S
There's her pattern...and I guess that she is e+ but possibly the cream of the female body would be removed with a different locus. SO -- for the Duckwing look of the Isabel which is what I wanted, versus the Columbian (Coronation?) look -- I would select out the Columbian gene. I have to go out and inspect my two now -- because I haven't paid much attention to the differences shown by the above photo (barring gene also tends to lighten/dilute things a bit)..... It seems so obvious now and it was such a mystery back then. Astonishing how you can keep learning stuff about genetics.
Just to be clear, remove the Columbian from that genetic set up on the chicken calculator and you get

This the pattern of the chicken in the foreground....difference is just the Columbian gene in the calculation.

Now this has my interest because of the Colombian. I think that will be my next project. Coronation Leghorn.