Layer feed and breeding/roosters

[Shadrach]

Part of the reason for the lack of common knowledge regarding the roosters calcium trap is the bulk of the research that has gone into chicken nutrition has centered around the hen and egg laying.
The poor old rooster if wanted for reproduction got replaced by a younger one around two years old I have read.
Most roosters weren’t allowed to live long enough for long term diet problems to be an issue. I have read, that it was game fowl breeders who were more interested in rooster longevity and hence nutritional analysis.

I became interested because roosters here were dying much earlier that the hens born from the same clutch. The symptoms were virtually identical between these roosters. I started to look more carefully at not just what they eat, but how they eat which changes with the egg laying cycles of the hens.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Then where are all your data sheets to prove that extra calcium intake by a rooster means certain death?? You must have done some sort of study on this and have statistics to prove, no?

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/2337/urolithiasis-in-male-broiler-breeders/
https://www.poultryworld.net/Breede...-damage-is-emerging-in-laying-hens-WP008719W/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4095065https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4095065
https://academic.oup.com/ps/article/87/7/1353/1542279
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7335125
http://www.livestocklibrary.com.au/handle/1234/19522
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...s-Calcium-and-Infectious-Bronchitis-Virus.pdf
Read the calcium section in the next link. Unless you just want to doubt science.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/poisonings/overview-of-poisonings-in-poultry

 

[Shadrach]

Most layer feed is 3 % calcium not sure where the 4% comes from. Also where is a scientific article stating not to feed layer feed to a rooster? I do agree with the young lady that a grower feed might be ok for both rooster and the hens right now as her next step if reluctant to feed layer feed. Most roosters will not eat oyster shell if provided on the side. Also since she has hens housed separately and is considering breeding programs the simple solution is to create a bachelor pad for the roosters as she will need to protect the purity of the breed to avoid barnyard mixes that are difficult to sell if own multiple breeds. People want purebreds. She can place roosters with matching breed when she wants to breed then she can feed them separately. This may be another option.

Most layer pellets here range from 4.2% calcium to 4.9%.

 

[chickens really]

Not necessarily, in order to kickstart my oegb during breeding season, I gave her another hen and roo all layer, she laid 14 eggs with 10 being viable and 8 hatching. I occasionally gave them a handful of scratch and grass as well, but no added or supplemental protien or anything, and because the trio are wild, they aren't allowed to graze wither.

I never feed layer feed. I feed grower/finisher feed and supply Oyster shell in a separate dish.

 

[Kris5902]

Again, I am so grateful for the depth of knowledge and research that has been made available through this site. That this level of support and information is available to us outside of the poultry industry is wonderful.
I have tried sourcing directly from our local feed mills, but none of them will deal in less than 2 tons of feed per order direct to a consumer. One supplier I was inquiring with for mill run pellets for cattle the minimum was 28 tons! But only $80 CAD per ton...
Thanks to all for the information and suggestions!

 

[Melky]

http://www.thepoultrysite.com/articles/2337/urolithiasis-in-male-broiler-breeders/
https://www.poultryworld.net/Breede...-damage-is-emerging-in-laying-hens-WP008719W/
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4095065https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/4095065
https://academic.oup.com/ps/article/87/7/1353/1542279
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7335125
http://www.livestocklibrary.com.au/handle/1234/19522
https://www.researchgate.net/profil...s-Calcium-and-Infectious-Bronchitis-Virus.pdf
Read the calcium section in the next link. Unless you just want to doubt science.
https://www.merckvetmanual.com/poultry/poisonings/overview-of-poisonings-in-poultry

Don’t get me wrong not saying there could not be some concern regarding calcium but broilers are not put usually on layer feed and typically do not get the 3% calcium in broiler feed. Another point in one of your studies is higher calcium was started prior to laying age to see what would happen from about 8-18 weeks which resulted in Urolithiasis but no one has a feed high in calcium from 8 weeks on. Most feeds have a 1% calcium in feed till layer feed which is when the higher calcium starts at 3 % for egg shell development at about 18 weeks. I would never nor would any company put a an 8 week old chicken on higher calcium. If a chicken is not laying they do not need the higher calcium. Other articles citing renal problems coincide with comorbidity meaning illness which may not be surprising as many illnesses can impact organ function. So far I don’t see a lot of evidence here that layer feed harms a rooster.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Most layer feed is 3 % calcium not sure where the 4% comes from. Also where is a scientific article stating not to feed layer feed to a rooster? I do agree with the young lady that a grower feed might be ok for both rooster and the hens right now as her next step if reluctant to feed layer feed. Most roosters will not eat oyster shell if provided on the side. Also since she has hens housed separately and is considering breeding programs the simple solution is to create a bachelor pad for the roosters as she will need to protect the purity of the breed to avoid barnyard mixes that are difficult to sell if own multiple breeds. People want purebreds. She can place roosters with matching breed when she wants to breed then she can feed them separately. This may be another option.

I've been doing this so long that the numbers are in my head so I don't need to read the labels any more but here you go.
Feather Fixer type feeds are the only layer feeds with calcium content as low as 3%.

Purina Layena
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) 16%
Crude Fat (min.) 2.5%
Crude Fiber (max.) 6.5%
Lysine (min.) 0.7%
Calcium (Ca) (min.) 3.25%
Calcium (Ca) (max.) 4.25%
Phosphorus(P) (min.) 0.45%
Vitamin A (min.) 3000 IU/lb.
Vitamin E, (min.) 12 IU/lb.
Methionine (min.) 0.3
Magnesium (Mg) (min.) 100%
Sodium (Na) (min.) 0.3
Sodium (Na) (max.) 0.8
Phytase (A. Oryzae) (min.) 227 FYT/lb.

New Country Organics
Analysis Crude protein, minimum - 17.00%. Lysine, minimum - 0.9%. Methionine, minimum - 0.25%. Crude fat, minimum - 3.00%. Crude fiber, maximum - 6.00%. Calcium, minimum - 3.5%. Calcium, maximum - 4.5% Phosphorous, minimum - 0.8%. Salt, minimum - 0.45%. Salt, maximum - 0.95%.

http://naturesgrownorganics.com/cms20/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Dialogs/NG_16_LAYER_50.pdf

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Don’t get me wrong not saying there could not be some concern regarding calcium but broilers are not put usually on layer feed and typically do not get the 3% calcium in broiler feed. Another point in one of your studies is higher calcium was started prior to laying age to see what would happen from about 8-18 weeks which resulted in Urolithiasis but no one has a feed high in calcium from 8 weeks on. Most feeds have a 1% calcium in feed till layer feed which is when the higher calcium starts at 3 % for egg shell development at about 18 weeks. I would never nor would any company put a an 8 week old chicken on higher calcium. If a chicken is not laying they do not need the higher calcium. Other articles citing renal problems coincide with comorbidity meaning illness which may not be surprising as many illnesses can impact organ function. So far I don’t see a lot of evidence here that layer feed harms a rooster.

Like chicks, roosters are not layers.
Older non-laying hens or molting hens aren't layers either and shouldn't be fed layer.
You don't have to believe me, your choice. Just do yourself a favor if you consistently feed layer feed to roosters, have a necropsy done on sudden deaths and find out for yourself.
I've had this same conversation in several discussions with the avian pathologist at the Mizzou vet school as well as the Purina poultry nutritionist. The consensus was always that since roosters aren't layers they shouldn't regularly consume such a high percentage of calcium in their diet.
I think it is the sudden death with no symptoms thing that creates doubters.

 

[Melky]

If you raise broilers and laying hens you will obviously need to house and feed separately as they have separate nutritional needs and goals.

 

[Melky]

I've been doing this so long that the numbers are in my head so I don't need to read the labels any more but here you go.
Feather Fixer type feeds are the only layer feeds with calcium content as low as 3%.

Purina Layena
Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) 16%
Crude Fat (min.) 2.5%
Crude Fiber (max.) 6.5%
Lysine (min.) 0.7%
Calcium (Ca) (min.) 3.25%
Calcium (Ca) (max.) 4.25%
Phosphorus(P) (min.) 0.45%
Vitamin A (min.) 3000 IU/lb.
Vitamin E, (min.) 12 IU/lb.
Methionine (min.) 0.3
Magnesium (Mg) (min.) 100%
Sodium (Na) (min.) 0.3
Sodium (Na) (max.) 0.8
Phytase (A. Oryzae) (min.) 227 FYT/lb.

New Country Organics
Analysis Crude protein, minimum - 17.00%. Lysine, minimum - 0.9%. Methionine, minimum - 0.25%. Crude fat, minimum - 3.00%. Crude fiber, maximum - 6.00%. Calcium, minimum - 3.5%. Calcium, maximum - 4.5% Phosphorous, minimum - 0.8%. Salt, minimum - 0.45%. Salt, maximum - 0.95%.

http://naturesgrownorganics.com/cms20/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Dialogs/NG_16_LAYER_50.pdf

I've been doing this so long that the numbers are in my head so I don't need to read the labels any more but here you go.
Feather Fixer type feeds are the only layer feeds with calcium content as low as 3%.

Purina Layena

Guaranteed Analysis:
Crude Protein (min.) 16%
Crude Fat (min.) 2.5%
Crude Fiber (max.) 6.5%
Lysine (min.) 0.7%
Calcium (Ca) (min.) 3.25%
Calcium (Ca) (max.) 4.25%
Phosphorus(P) (min.) 0.45%
Vitamin A (min.) 3000 IU/lb.
Vitamin E, (min.) 12 IU/lb.
Methionine (min.) 0.3
Magnesium (Mg) (min.) 100%
Sodium (Na) (min.) 0.3
Sodium (Na) (max.) 0.8
Phytase (A. Oryzae) (min.) 227 FYT/lb.

New Country Organics
Analysis Crude protein, minimum - 17.00%. Lysine, minimum - 0.9%. Methionine, minimum - 0.25%. Crude fat, minimum - 3.00%. Crude fiber, maximum - 6.00%. Calcium, minimum - 3.5%. Calcium, maximum - 4.5% Phosphorous, minimum - 0.8%. Salt, minimum - 0.45%. Salt, maximum - 0.95%.

http://naturesgrownorganics.com/cms20/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Dialogs/NG_16_LAYER_50.pdf

http://naturesgrownorganics.com/cms20/CuteSoft_Client/CuteEditor/Dialogs/NG_16_LAYER_50.pdf

Ok I do get that you were referring to min and max calcium levels in layer feed My layer feed has the same levels. I frequently refer to minimum.