My cockerel is getting worse--- Help please

[mustangrooster]

A vet trip will be made tomorrow, hopefully he pulls through tonight....

Where would you guys suggest to find these vitamins? If I cant find them in the grocery store would a vet have some by any chance?

 

[azygous]

These are just run-of-the-mill vitamin pills. If you're in Australia, you may not have Walmarts but I get mine there, Any pharmacy should have these vitamins. Or a health store would have a bigger selection.

I crush a pill and mix it into a dab of peanut butter. The E400iu can be opened and squeezed onto food. Be sure he gets it all, though. Depending on how bad he is and if the damage isn't permanent, you should see improvement within a week, and full recovery in a month.

If there is no change, he probably won't get better. The antibiotic will or won't work depending on if the lesions are bacterial in nature. If they're viral, there will be no change.

 

[kwhites634]

This is so sad. I love him just from seeing his photos.

I believe you need to prepare yourself to lose him. The lump is possibly cancerous, and while the exterior lump appears to have gone down, there may be many more tumors inside of his body.

Of course, the lumps could also be caused by a respiratory virus or some other avian disease. You might try an antibiotic on the off chance that the symptoms are bacterial, but it would be mostly to rule it out if he fails to respond to the antibiotic.

The most reliable indication of the health and well being of a chicken is their behavior. A chicken that feels well, is lively, curious, vocal, and has a good appetite. A chicken that is in pain or doesn't feel well, is lethargic, submissive, mute, and isn't interested in food.

You need to consider euthanasia as it appears he could be in considerable pain. If/when he dies, I recommend getting a necropsy on his body so you will know what has caused his tumors and if this might have implications for the rest of your flock.

I'm so sorry.

X2 He's in pain, most likely. I'd put him down.

 

[rebrascora]

Hi
I'm so sorry your little guy is sick. Unfortunately all the symptoms he is displaying match with my knowledge and experience of Marek's disease, even the fall into the water trough is an indication, which I know may sound odd but quite a few of my Marek's sufferers started off by falling into awkward places and getting stuck. Places that I've never had problems with healthy birds getting caught.

The symptoms I am basing this on are:-

The lesion on his face
His eye colour, that greying of the iris is a common sign of ocular Marek's
His lameness
His alertness.... apparent healthiness and interest in food.... as long as this continues, he has a chance to fight this outbreak. I euthanize once they lose interest in food.
His skinniness.... Marek's birds are prone to muscle wastage even though they eat well.
The start of respiratory problems..... secondary infections due to a compromised immune system caused by the Marek's virus are common or perhaps a tumour developing on is lung, which is a common site for Marek's tumours.
His age.... he is an adolescent which is the most vulnerable age for the disease.

Personally I do not believe that Marek's lameness causes pain. I see my birds with it get frustrated that they cannot coordinate their limbs but the fact that they are bright eyed and enthusiastic about food suggests that they are not suffering significant discomfort.

I'm sorry to give such a pessimistic diagnosis of your little guy but I have had birds battle back from some pretty debilitating symptoms of the disease and as long as they keep eating there is hope.
Supporting his immune system with a good quality poultry supplement like Nutri Drench and fermented feed or probiotics and getting him out on grass in the sunshine whenever possible are the things that I have found help.

Best wishes

Barbara

 

[mustangrooster]

Alright guys, he is still alive, battling on. He is still eating and drinking.....guess thats a good sign. He's loving his scrambled eggs and honey. He's even been eating blueberries and bannanas. He hasn't stood up for one full day now...guess he is technically lame now. He has tried to move away from me a number of times, but he sorta just flops around....he uses his wings to stop him from falling face first. I hate seeing him like this.

These are just run-of-the-mill vitamin pills. If you're in Australia, you may not have Walmarts but I get mine there, Any pharmacy should have these vitamins. Or a health store would have a bigger selection.

I crush a pill and mix it into a dab of peanut butter. The E400iu can be opened and squeezed onto food. Be sure he gets it all, though. Depending on how bad he is and if the damage isn't permanent, you should see improvement within a week, and full recovery in a month.

If there is no change, he probably won't get better. The antibiotic will or won't work depending on if the lesions are bacterial in nature. If they're viral, there will be no change.

Thanks for all the info. Hoping to get him the vitamins today.

Hi
I'm so sorry your little guy is sick. Unfortunately all the symptoms he is displaying match with my knowledge and experience of Marek's disease, even the fall into the water trough is an indication, which I know may sound odd but quite a few of my Marek's sufferers started off by falling into awkward places and getting stuck. Places that I've never had problems with healthy birds getting caught.

The symptoms I am basing this on are:-

The lesion on his face
His eye colour, that greying of the iris is a common sign of ocular Marek's
His lameness
His alertness.... apparent healthiness and interest in food.... as long as this continues, he has a chance to fight this outbreak. I euthanize once they lose interest in food.
His skinniness.... Marek's birds are prone to muscle wastage even though they eat well.
The start of respiratory problems..... secondary infections due to a compromised immune system caused by the Marek's virus are common or perhaps a tumour developing on is lung, which is a common site for Marek's tumours.
His age.... he is an adolescent which is the most vulnerable age for the disease.

Personally I do not believe that Marek's lameness causes pain. I see my birds with it get frustrated that they cannot coordinate their limbs but the fact that they are bright eyed and enthusiastic about food suggests that they are not suffering significant discomfort.

I'm sorry to give such a pessimistic diagnosis of your little guy but I have had birds battle back from some pretty debilitating symptoms of the disease and as long as they keep eating there is hope.
Supporting his immune system with a good quality poultry supplement like Nutri Drench and fermented feed or probiotics and getting him out on grass in the sunshine whenever possible are the things that I have found help.

Best wishes

Barbara

Wow! Thank you for all this info. When you go through all the symptoms and how your birds act when they have Marek's disease....it sounds like my little fella has it too. He's a little fighter, I just hope I can do him right and get exactly what he needs. What I'm now worried about is if he has Marek's disease, then....can my whole flock catch it? He has mingled with most, if not all, of my other birds. My flock isn't at its best right now either.

I usually do give my birds fermented feed, but I have stopped for a bit because I have been really busy. But, I'm going to make some just for this guy.

I didn't want to move him around if he had a spinal injury, but I have a feeling it might be Marek's disease...or a bit of both...so he will get out to the sunshine and grass for a bit.

Would I still try and get some antibiotics that would target staph, or not? Is there any antibiotics that would target Marek's disease, or is it all about just helping him fight it and hopefully survive it? I do still plan on getting the vitamins, I feel like it might do him so good. Sorry for all the questions everyone, I just really cant loose my last frizzle.

 

[rebrascora]

Yes Marek's is contagious and it is likely that the rest of your flock has already been exposed to it. The thing with Marek's is that you don't know which birds have it and which don't until they have an outbreak like this little chap.

Marek's is like the AIDS of the chicken world. It can lie dormant for weeks or months, even years and then an outbreak will occur or the immune system will be weakened by it and a bird will suffer from an infection that they would normally have resistance to or be able to fight off. Also some birds will be resistant to the virus and others susceptible, so one or two may have an outbreak and show symptoms but several others may also have it but not have an outbreak until several weeks/months/years later. Stress is often the trigger for an outbreak. The stress of adolescence (raging hormones etc) can trigger it, or moving home, being integrated into a new flock or even moulting or being confined when they are used to free ranging.
Some birds suffer from the more classic neurological symptoms like the inability to coordinate a limb or wry neck or wry tail or even unable to open one eye. The eye discolouration is not a symptom I have experienced in my flock but it is another tell tale Marek's sign. Other times, one pupil will be dilated or distorted in shape.
Some birds die suddenly without showing any of these classic neurological symptoms, due to the development of aggressive visceral tumours. There really are no hard and fast rules with it but once you have dealt with it for a while you start to recognise all it's various guises. Small, skinny birds are often the ones to keep an eye on.

It is caused by a virus (a Herpes virus) so antibiotics will not help (and may in fact hinder since they upset the bacterial balance in the gut... which will stress the digestive tract and reduce it's ability to absorb nutrients efficiently) unless he has a secondary bacterial infection. Giving antibiotics "just in case" or without knowing if they are the correct antibiotic for the infection you are treating is not good because it leads to antibiotic resistance, which is becoming a world wide problem for us all, so I would not recommend giving him an antibiotic unless a vet prescribes it.
Marek's is an extremely widespread disease and very easily contracted.... dander dust from carriers of the disease is shed and inhaled into the lungs of healthy birds causing them to become infected..... often whilst preening and roosting next to each other at night. Buying chicks or even adult birds from a breeder or auction is the most common way to bring it into your flock but it can also be carried on clothes, skin and hair from visiting an infected flock or even at a fair. The birds can appear totally healthy and still carry the disease and unfortunately there is no recognised treatment. NPIP certification does not cover Marek's so even buying from a reputable NPIP breeder is not safe. Many people do not even know that they have it in their flock because they do not get necropsies done on birds that die.
If you know you have it in your flock then it is responsible to take precautions when visiting other flocks and not sell or give away birds from your infected flock, even apparently healthy birds.

 

[mustangrooster]

I took him outside for a little bit...he's not looking his best....at all.

 

[azygous]

@rebrascora has given you an excellent rundown on Marek's. My flock has its close cousin lymphoid leucosis, and as I mentioned earlier, your rooster has all the symptoms of LL, too. All the symptoms of Marek's also apply to the disease my chickens carry. You said you were feeding fermented feed up until recently. FF is one way to help your flock live with the virus and keep their immune systems strong so they can hopefully avoid becoming symptomatic. Many flocks have these viruses, but most chickens can develop resistance and live long healthy lives in spite of carrying these deadly diseases.

It's very important to know if your flock has an avian virus so you can keep them healthy, but also so you can take measures to avoid spreading the disease to other flocks. I have shoes I only wear in my run. They don't go anywhere else because if I wore them to the store, the virus could then be picked up by other shoes and walked home to other flocks. That's probably how the virus got into my flock - I walked it home from the feed store years ago.

The only reliable way to find out if your flock has a particular virus is to have a necropsy done on the next chicken that dies. You can have blood tested from a live chicken for virus markers, but I don't think it's as good as a necropsy, and it would be a lot more expensive since it involves DNA sequencing.

The little pullet of mine that's sick is probably not going to recover, and it's the virus she carries that lowered her immune system responses. I'm pretty sure she has Clostridium perfringens, but she's not responding to the antibiotics because the virus has hammered her immune system. I'm not optimistic that she'll be alive come morning. On the other hand, I have a hen who will be celebrating her tenth birthday come June.

 

[rebrascora]

I'm sorry but he does look distressed in that photo, poor little guy. The open mouth breathing is not good. Does that settle down a bit when he is left to his own devices and not handled?

 

[mustangrooster]

I'm sorry but he does look distressed in that photo, poor little guy. The open mouth breathing is not good. Does that settle down a bit when he is left to his own devices and not handled?

No, it doesn't settle down...he's still breathing like that even when hes by himself. He did it for most of yesterday too. Its really worrying me.