not all birds are created equal

[CelticOaksFarm]

Christine lets agree that you want to argue over this post and dont really have plans to contribute here other than continuing to argue over how pet flock breeding is ok as long as not sold as purebreds. Its not the point of this thread, neither is the creation of new breeds. It is to discuss current breeds and their breeding. Its not to make anyone feel badly for having pets, but to educate that just because you have a drake and a duck doesnt mean you have to hatch or should. I would very much appreciate the focus to return to the topic I posted about and not have to constantly explain myself. Its ok to disagree, it is ok to have different ideas on what should be bred for. feel free to start a thread about breeding for fun and selling mutt/mixed breeds if you want.

back to the subject at hand...becoming educated about breeds and how not every bird of a breed is of equal quality.

 

[sherrik9]

I know that in dogs the first thing you breed for is type. Then you don't want any major faults and so on down the list. I know that in some breeds good fronts are a problem etc. So my question is what is the hardest to maintain in ducks. I'm assuming that type would be easy but what are some issues that continue to come up. Is there anything that is specific to ducks like straight feet or is it all breed specific. Thanks

 

[ChristineR]

Christine lets agree that you want to argue over this post and dont really have plans to contribute here other than continuing to argue over how pet flock breeding is ok as long as not sold as purebreds. Its not the point of this thread, neither is the creation of new breeds. It is to discuss current breeds and their breeding. Its not to make anyone feel badly for having pets, but to educate that just because you have a drake and a duck doesnt mean you have to hatch or should. I would very much appreciate the focus to return to the topic I posted about and not have to constantly explain myself. Its ok to disagree, it is ok to have different ideas on what should be bred for. feel free to start a thread about breeding for fun and selling mutt/mixed breeds if you want.

back to the subject at hand...becoming educated about breeds and how not every bird of a breed is of equal quality.

Wow! I was offering my thoughts - not just arguing for argument's sake. If you didn't want any other opinions, you should have created an article to be read, not a discussion thread.

While I do breed for fun (why else would you want to do it?), I don't breed "mutts" or mixed breeds so I'll leave that to someone else.

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

I know that in dogs the first thing you breed for is type. Then you don't want any major faults and so on down the list. I know that in some breeds good fronts are a problem etc. So my question is what is the hardest to maintain in ducks. I'm assuming that type would be easy but what are some issues that continue to come up. Is there anything that is specific to ducks like straight feet or is it all breed specific. Thanks

I have found it is breed specific issues you need to look for. Call ducks are notorious for having lots of birds out there who are so far from type it isn't funny. Most of the rouens posted in pictures on here are far from what they should look like, they are avery large bird if true to type. We hatched hundreds (close to 300) Khaki this year and have final culls to do and will be at a flock of 9-12 total. The culls make perfectly fine pets and egg layers, but our goal is produce quality so we dont keep any with even a slight fault if we can help it. There are two drakes and a duck who need culled currently, the duck will be put up for sale as an egg layer, the boys will be put in the meat yard for future butchering.

 

[sherrik9]

I have found it is breed specific issues you need to look for. Call ducks are notorious for having lots of birds out there who are so far from type it isn't funny. Most of the rouens posted in pictures on here are far from what they should look like, they are avery large bird if true to type. We hatched hundreds (close to 300) Khaki this year and have final culls to do and will be at a flock of 9-12 total. The culls make perfectly fine pets and egg layers, but our goal is produce quality so we dont keep any with even a slight fault if we can help it. There are two drakes and a duck who need culled currently, the duck will be put up for sale as an egg layer, the boys will be put in the meat yard for future butchering.

Thanks. Where is the best place to see good examples of any specific breed? I've read some standards and looked at pictures on the web but nothing beats seeing an animal in person. The only place I've ever seen ducks is at county fairs. Is this a good place to look for examples of good birds?

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

You have a few larger shows out your way each year. These would be the best place to see good birds at. The APA would have a list of shows and dates with location. Had mail recently from them will see if I can find any dates your way. I know Jean from Pips&Peeps and UltraSol both show and have geese out your way. They might be the best sources for all things show close by.

 

[sherrik9]

You have a few larger shows out your way each year. These would be the best place to see good birds at. The APA would have a list of shows and dates with location. Had mail recently from them will see if I can find any dates your way. I know Jean from Pips&Peeps and UltraSol both show and have geese out your way. They might be the best sources for all things show close by.

Thanks. I will go to the web and see if I can find any shows.

 

[toadbriar]

Celtic I respect you and Christine both enormously but I admit I did interpret the tone of the original post and the intended direction of the thread just as she did - as a bit of a fiat. I've no intention of being deliberately obtuse or spoiling for a fight - just thinking the conversation you wanted to have was a different one from the one you DO want to have.


That said....

Breeding for the standard is obviously a goal but it is not a perfect system - it can, over time, make the breed unrecognizable. In the cat fancy it turned this into this.

The bull terrier between 1930-1980 changed dramatically as each generation tried to interpret the standard to a more extreme degree than the last. And breeders had little choice if they wanted dogs who could compete - that's what judges were, and are, placing. See the skull comparison as they changed through the years:

These are two diverse examples but they've got breeding-for-type in common. There's a reason why some dog breeders resist tooth and nail getting AKC recognition of their dog breed. So, from those and other examples of pretty but decreasingly-functional animals, I maybe take breeding for exhibition as not the entirety of the goal. Functionality, laying ability, broodiness etc. are important aspects of a fowl breed, but I don't recall seeing ribbons awarded for those, so I can see them falling by the wayside in the pursuit of a stunning bird that will turn a judge's head. Sometimes IMO it's worth keeping an ugly bird in the flock if she brings non-visible traits you want to keep intact. I'm concerned with throwing traits like that away, in pursuit of appearance. That's not to say exclude appearance - just maybe take longer to get there for the sake of a sort of whole-bird view. IMO breed to function, your wisdom, and your conscience too. It's a balancing act and it demands a clear eye for what you've got and where you want to take it.

 

[grawg]

These are two diverse examples but they've got breeding-for-type in common. There's a reason why some dog breeders resist tooth and nail getting AKC recognition of their dog breed. So, from those and other examples of pretty but decreasingly-functional animals, I maybe take breeding for exhibition as not the entirety of the goal. Functionality, laying ability, broodiness etc. are important aspects of a fowl breed, but I don't recall seeing ribbons awarded for those, so I can see them falling by the wayside in the pursuit of a stunning bird that will turn a judge's head. Sometimes IMO it's worth keeping an ugly bird in the flock if she brings non-visible traits you want to keep intact. I'm concerned with throwing traits like that away, in pursuit of appearance. That's not to say exclude appearance - just maybe take longer to get there for the sake of a sort of whole-bird view. IMO breed to function, your wisdom, and your conscience too. It's a balancing act and it demands a clear eye for what you've got and where you want to take it.

Let me first say that I think celticoaksfarms has stunning khaki campbells, and after visiting their website it's quite obvious they take breeding and waterfowl care very seriously.

I do think toadbriar brings up a valid point though, and I would love to see a serious breeders take on it. Especially in regards to indian runner ducks. From what I've read about them, they used to be the most prolific egg laying breed of duck. However, over the generations and the constant breeding for type, they have dropped significantly in that category. That egg laying ability seems to be to be one of the most important aspects of the runner duck and what it did for various "spin-off" breeds, campbells included.

A question for serious breeders of campbell ducks: What obligation, if any, do you as a breeder have to the original intent of the breed? Is this something that with today's standards makes any difference in the way you breed and cull?

 

[CelticOaksFarm]

We single out the girls and assess for laying. They have to lay well, and meet color standards to be kept for breeding. Otherwise they are sold as pets for eggs for individuals. If they dont serve their function they shouldnt be bred, but with that they also need to meet standard as well. One of my best layers has a yellow bill. She is a cull, but female culls are sold where males often find the freezer. I want our Khakis to lay as described as well as look right. I want our silver appleyards to be good meat bird, forage well, and color out to standard as closely as we can get them.Temperament comes into play every time as well. It might mean more culling, but so be it.

Thanks for compliments, I have a critical eye when looking at the birds and spend hours bouncing breeding combos off hubby to see if he agrees and sees the same thing I do.