Not an Emergency...Marek's in the Flock

[Nambroth]

Hi everyone, sorry I am always asking you guys questions, but you all seem to be the most knowledgable about mareks! Last week I got 16 chicks from meyers, they were vaccinated abd have been kept totally seperate. One of them yesterday started with adroopy wing, and on the same side was limping a little. She is eating and acting ok otherwise. Can mareks show up this quickly? Also, can she get mareks from the vacc? I keep getting conflicting info, I know it is because there are so many strains and that mareks does not follow rules! Hate this! Any siggestions on what may help her?

Am I understanding correctly that your new 16 chicks are only a week old (or less)?
Do you have other chickens, or have you had them in the past? Essentially, have the new babies come into contact with any area that has been exposed to other chickens?

If the chicks are that young, and further haven't been exposed to other chickens (directly or indirectly), really, the chances that it is Marek's seem extremely low. They cannot get it from the vaccine. If they were mine, I'd be looking for other reasons for the droopy wing and limp.

 

[seminolewind]

It's fun . I wanted 3. Got 4, now have 34. They're like Lays Potato Chips. Can't just have one!

 

[IrishAcreFarm]

This is what he's been nailing to.

oh gosh!! I will try to be nice, but that farrier really should not have been continuing the care of that horse's feet if his "plan" did not show improvement. It bothers me that some horse professionals think they know everything and wont listen to other people who may actually have the right answer for the horse. Kudos to you Seminolewind for doing what was right

 

[Haunted55]

I dont know im guessing raccoon or opossum got in coop. Killed three beheading them scalped and took the eye and beak from one left alive ( i had to put her down if you saw it you would get sick and i am a nurse) and this one this is what happened and left one alone. So i now have only two. Do i put her down is she in pain? What is the hard things sticking out is it beak, cartilage, bone, i dont know Im so sick to my stomach

I have contacted another member who's 1000 times smarter than I and better able to tell you what to do. Hopefully they will be able to respond to you. I can't tell you how sorry I am about this.

 

[mithious]

I just wanted to pop in and thank you all, for all the info you have given me. I know this is a marek's thread, but since marek's birds immune systems are shot to heck, they come down with all kinds of different diseases and parasites, so I have learned tons from you all about so many different diseases, the treatments, the parasites and treatments! I tend to come to this thread and read up on all you people have written in the past and have learned so very much!!! Thank you all soooo much!!!

 

[Haunted55]

Genilou, if your bird has been given birth control to stop egg production, she doesn't need all the calcium. That is sending mixed messages to her poor body. From the sounds of it, this poor girl has internal problems because of genetics or disease. I personally don't believe all the calcium in the world is going to change that. I am not a Vet, all I can tell you is what I would do if this girl were mine.....

First, I would stop all calcium intake for her. No dark green vegetables, no layer mash and no calcium supplements. I would just give her a grower feed, 15% and maybe mealworms for the added protien, as a treat. I would use the Super B Complex tablets in her water and call it good and wait for a few days.

With what I read in your post, it really does sound to me as if she has way too much D and calcium in her. If the Vet gave this on the assumption of the soft shells being from a calcium or vitamin D lack and wasn't aware of her complete history...yeah, it could be a problem. Blood work needed to be done to show the levels in her system because even hens will have problems with calcium if their bodies aren't able to utilize it properly for egg production. This is only my opinion, based on what I have read and seen with my own.

I recommend the Super B Complex a lot because it also has vitamin C in it. Chickens normally synthesize vitamin C in their bodies, cool huh? It has been my experience that when I have a bird who is showing neurological symptoms that the addition of the Super Bs go a long way in helping the bird recover...even with Marek's. No it doesn't get rid of the Marek's, but it does seem to give their bodies a fighting chance to kick it back a bit. Vitamin C works along with the Bs to strengthen the nervous system and keep it working correctly. I just did some checking on the half life of D and calcium...the half life of D3 is 10.7 days.....it may be a week before you would see any improvement from removing it from her diet along with the extra calcium.

Nambroth has said her bird with Marek's showed the same posture as yours. I would have to believe them as I know their knowledge base and experience is right up there. That's the thing with Marek's, it has similar base symptoms, but then it also can show itself in a lot of different way depending on the strains you are facing in your area. With out testing of blood or necropsy, you may never know.

 

[Nambroth]

THANK YOU. I will look up dosages, etc unless that info is included when I buy the vaccine? And should I just pick up the syringes at a feed store?

I am trying not to panic. Although I have to admit I haven't hardly slept at all since this all started last Wednesday. I have formed a plan - I'm taking my little roo to the vet tomorrow. The vet has chickens of her own and I am hoping she can offer a little insight after seeing him personally. After reading the other accounts and considering his age (18 weeks) and breed (silkie) I am pretty convinced it is mareks. Especially after I noticed that slight limp on my 30 week roo. His seems to come and go. I thought I noticed it a couple of weeks ago but it went away. I'll keep an eye on him.

I'll take the paper work for the blood test with me (Texas A&M) but I'll decide if I should do that or have him euthanized and have a necropsy done after she evaluates him. He is not progressing at all physically but it breaks my heart because he is eating well and so alert. I can tell he just wants to fly out of that box but can't. I hate it. I have not tried the b complex yet. I hadn't done anything else yet as I am afraid it is mareks and I don't want it to give myself false hope.

In your experience, is the blood test as reliable as the necropsy in diagnosis?

Lastly, I will follow your advice and vaccinate the rest of my flock. I know it will not be as effective as if I would have done it day one, but it certainly can not make matters worse. I am a little nervous about the different size needs and different dosages for the different aged birds. One thing at a time, though. Don't panic Julie!

Thanks so much for your help.

Blood testing for virus markers via DNA is absolutely much more reliable than necropsy. Some birds do not show visceral tumors in necropsy (especially if they have been vaccinated). Also, though lesions on the sciatic nerve is what causes the paralysis in our birds legs (during Marek's disease) these can be very hard to see even for an experienced vet under microscope. I will say that I had ALL tests run on my bird including the sciatic nerve sent out for full analysis by professionals. His sciatic nerve showed NO signs of Marek's, and yet he was paralyzed and had confirmed Marek's via gross necropsy and blood DNA test.

I am not an expert! But in my opinion the blood test is the most definitive test one can have run, if one an afford it.

 

[Nambroth]

I'm posting this from a doctor that someone on the silkie facebook page put me in touch with, advise for paralysis in my silkie who I'm sure has mareks -

"Curcumin with Bioperine as close to 1000 mg Cap or Tab that you can get 1 3 x a day. You can get this at any store that sells Quality Vitamins and Health Stuff. Give1 81 MG Aspirin 3 x a day and see what happens"

in a later post he said "
Curcumin is the active ingredient in the Asian Spice Turmeric. Having the Bioperine a patented extract of the Black Peppercorn makes the Curcumin 2000 times more Bio-available.
The strength of what you got needs to be at or around 1000 mg total Curcumin and Bioperine combined."
Haunted- I recall you recommending tumeric.
He said recovery is 50/50 or so. I bought liquid tumeric but need to see about getting exactly what he recommended.
A link to what I found to buy - wow, getting 2 caps of this in her 3x a day would be work!
http://www.vitacost.com/vitacost-tu...g-60-capsules-1/?pd_section=pr#productDetails

Gosh, I sure wish I hadn't lost my bookmarks some months ago! I did read a research paper about the benefits of tumeric, and it is true that black pepper (ground from black peppercorns) makes the tumeric more available to the body. This was for humans but I don't think there are any known negative side effects of offering tumeric+black pepper. If it cannot hurt, it is worth a try, because what else can be done that you aren't already doing, right? I will see if I can find that paper again... (as always, listen to a licensed vet over my advice if you hear otherwise!)

Good news from my vet. The necropsy I had done on my roo showed no parasites and no infection - nothing to suggest disease. She will get a full report on Monday but it's looking good. I think if it were mareks at the very least they would have found cocci due to the effects on the immune system. Haunted's first reaction to my Roos case was probably not mareks. Sounds like she was likely right

.

I know we mention cocci on here a lot, and it's true that Marek's does a number on the bird's immune system, but (and this is for the benefit of other readers too, not necessarily aimed at you Julie!) the lack of cocci findings in a necropsy should never be an indicator of Marek's not being present.



A few things to bear in mind for those that get their bird necropsied:

--A gross necropsy on a bird that has visceral Marek's will usually show signs of tumorous lymphomas (or the pre-stages of this condition) but other forms of Marek's may leave no visible physical evidence during necropsy. Marek's lymphomas are most commonly found on (but not limited to) the ovary (in hens), spleen, liver, kidneys, lungs, heart, thymus, proventriculus (this is an area just before the gizzard, and may appear abnormal). The gizzard may also display discoloration inside as a reaction.

--The finding of lymphomatic tumors is often a sign of Marek's but it is important that there are other diseases that can cause such lymphomas (see: Avian Viral Lymphoid Leukosis). Marek's is just usually the diagnosis because it is the most common disease to cause lymphomas of this nature, and in certain locations within the body. The current trend of thought by professionals is that Marek's is much more common than many people realize, and may account for a good number of "unexplained" chicken deaths.

--A necropsy examining the sciatic nerve may reveal lesions which can indicate Marek's, but not all birds that develop paralysis show sciatic nerve lesions, even under microscope examination. My rooster that developed aggressive Marek's lymphomas and complete paralysis of both legs did not have any evidence based on sciatic nerve examination, even by a laboratory (the nerve was sent out for analysis).

--A gross necropsy can be a good launching point for diagnosis, but without a histology and especially a blood test, it is a very educated guess at best, and if the necropsy is inconclusive, it is really hard to say.


None of this is intended to scare anyone, nor to make anyone suspect Marek's where there is none... I just to educate about what all this necropsy stuff means. The only reason I keep emphasizing the blood test is that for many individuals, it may mean the difference between "I now have a closed flock" and "I am clear to breed and sell chickens now".
As there are many very good breeders here on BYC, and many wanting to get into breeding (and/or showing and/or selling etc)... and especially those breeding or working on endangered breeds... it's can very important to know exactly what your flock is carrying (or not carrying).
I know not everyone can afford or even find a way to get blood drawn for the test, but if you are able to do it, it's worth considering if you are uncertain if your flock has Marek's or other infectious viral diseases or not. Education is the best weapon we have against this and other disease!

 

[Nambroth]

Our girls are free range too, so if it is Marek's it is all over my entire property. We are due for snow and Saranac Lake is repeatedly the cold spot of the nation. Will the freezing temps kill off the remaining contagion? I can deal with the coop, it is the great outdoors that I find daunting.

If it is Marek's, and you can confirm it:
In short, no- Marek's is a herpesvirus and it is very good at living outside of a host for months or even years. It may reduce the amount of virus that survives in your soil/on the ground/environment but you cannot realistically hope for winter to eliminate it even in your climate. While I don't think we get as cold as you do there, last winter we had a very long winter and temps below -30 for sometimes several days at a time and sadly it was during the winter that wild birds (I am assuming) brought the virus onto my property and infected my flock.

The means to remove it entirely from the environment/ground are extreme, expensive, and environmentally destructive. For most of us it is not worth it, especially when it could just come in again via the environment or even via ourselves. I know I have unwittingly tracked it into my home.. I could just as easily track it back out again even if I cleaned my house top to bottom. As it travels on chicken dander-- that is to say, dust-- you'd need clean-room levels of precautions to be sure to be rid of it entirely.

You can also assume, if one of your flock has or had Marek's, that any other chicken it lived around for the last month or three has it or carries it.

 

[ChookCheeka]

WOW! First thing I would like to say is how impressed I am with all of you that belong to this thread. Impressed with the knowledge, the sincere kindness, the cheerleaders, the strong shoulders! I have just spent the last week or so reading all 134, (I think) pages. It was like a book I couldn't put down. I want to thank every one of you! I've learned so much! I've cried, and laughed, prayed and cheered. I will keep checking in to see how everyone is doing, I kinda feel like I know most of ya! Lol This has been my favorite thread so far.

We are planning on getting chicks next spring and I've been doing my homework. Got my coop plan, got my "meds to have on hand" list, best hatchery, illnesses to watch for, etc, etc. My journey started at different hatcheries looking at breeds suitable for our climate. I had read about the vacc for Mareks on Murry McMurray which in turn led me to this site and this thread. I've saved links, taken notes, and book marked page after page. We will most certainly be getting vaccinated chicks, and I'll be getting additional vaccine to give them a booster. If I ever have any problems next year this will be my first stop!

Oh and I subscribed to the thread about Horse Hooves that someone from this thread started, I had a bad shoer too!