Official stud-book PMI-TN for Pavo Muticus Imperator

This is what I found at a visit to a european breeder. 2 birds from the official Imperator studbook PMI Germany what look very shabby and not as outstanding birds. A female with lot of white feathering, very few and dull wing cover color, and complete brown back. A male of 2 years, having less than the size of a female, very short crest and also the same few coloring an the wings. It seems, that the PMI breeding Germany keeps and sells different types of imperator birds. The owner of these birds confirmes the origin of these birds from the PMI - TN program Germany, both bought from the same location. All birds look great on the website pics of the breeding farm, but if you have them really in nature ??? see the pics.
View attachment 1413965


View attachment 1413966

View attachment 1413967

Al lot of in your post are very strange. First of all, this male is never ever two years old! If it is two years old then it is for sure not a pure muticus! Where it is coming from I don't know, but it is not registered in the studbook otherwise I should now it and it should have rings.

When you make Pictures of hens it is very important to know the conditions in spring they are very colourful and then it gets less and less depending on how much sun they are having.

I made a post on 21.05.2018 on my facebook side where you can see all my breeding birds and some offspring from this year. The pictures which you see in this post are all made on 20.05.2018.
https://www.facebook.com/Pfauenfarm-143853162430406/
For everything else I’m not responsible.
 
Yes you are right in a few details. This male was pictured in may 2018, so he had 2 month until his second birthday. But it was in his second year. This male is imperator out of the studbook stock PMI-TN Germany. It was send to the breeder together with another male in august 2016. That year the breeding farm send out many july-bred-chickens for 150.- Euros each to different locations. It had no ring because it was much to small to wear it. It was marked with 2 plastic rings different color, from what the breeder was told, they would grown on wider with the leg, and what not happened. The plastic rings where covered with meat at the legs and had to be removed by an operation in november 2016. That is the story. It is a pure descendant from the imperator bloodlines of the studbook breeding.
We all are common with your flood of careful selected pictures. If something appears in a forum you always post many of your pictures what should show - your birds are the most beautiful in the world. But that is not fact. The picture of this female with white feather variations shows an original bird of the PMI - TN program. I posted this picture to show, that not all birds from this bloodlines are top and pure. This bird shows epistasis, a genetic phenomenon that appears, when the genetic of the subspecies is unpure - so mixed. It appears easily at females in the 3rd year of age, while they get adult. Harder on males, but this happens too. You may have beautiful imperator birds in that breeding program, but not all. There are mixed subspecies too. You may answer now, that all birds come from wilderness of Thailand and are not mixed with other caged birds, but - in Thailand hundreds of caged birds in socalled "royal breeding stations" where let free, or escaped. And in that stations muticus, imperator and spicifer subspecies where mixed for years. No one can rely on the pureness of caged birds in Thailand, not in zoos and not in these royal breeding stations. The pure thai imperator, what appears in central Thailand until today, does not look like your presented breeding stock.
And another thing disturbes me - the beautiful imperator are NOT the most colorful and brilliant subspecies among the green peafowl. This is definitely the Pavo muticus muticus from Java and Malaysia. You can not change facts that many prominent scientists based after years of investigation and science with a few selected pictures of your birds. Imperator are beautiful, but Pavo muticus muticus are by far much more shiny and colorful.
 
Yes you are right in a few details. This male was pictured in may 2018, so he had 2 month until his second birthday. But it was in his second year. This male is imperator out of the studbook stock PMI-TN Germany. It was send to the breeder together with another male in august 2016. That year the breeding farm send out many july-bred-chickens for 150.- Euros each to different locations. It had no ring because it was much to small to wear it. It was marked with 2 plastic rings different color, from what the breeder was told, they would grown on wider with the leg, and what not happened. The plastic rings where covered with meat at the legs and had to be removed by an operation in november 2016. That is the story. It is a pure descendant from the imperator bloodlines of the studbook breeding.
We all are common with your flood of careful selected pictures. If something appears in a forum you always post many of your pictures what should show - your birds are the most beautiful in the world. But that is not fact. The picture of this female with white feather variations shows an original bird of the PMI - TN program. I posted this picture to show, that not all birds from this bloodlines are top and pure. This bird shows epistasis, a genetic phenomenon that appears, when the genetic of the subspecies is unpure - so mixed. It appears easily at females in the 3rd year of age, while they get adult. Harder on males, but this happens too. You may have beautiful imperator birds in that breeding program, but not all. There are mixed subspecies too. You may answer now, that all birds come from wilderness of Thailand and are not mixed with other caged birds, but - in Thailand hundreds of caged birds in socalled "royal breeding stations" where let free, or escaped. And in that stations muticus, imperator and spicifer subspecies where mixed for years. No one can rely on the pureness of caged birds in Thailand, not in zoos and not in these royal breeding stations. The pure thai imperator, what appears in central Thailand until today, does not look like your presented breeding stock.
And another thing disturbes me - the beautiful imperator are NOT the most colorful and brilliant subspecies among the green peafowl. This is definitely the Pavo muticus muticus from Java and Malaysia. You can not change facts that many prominent scientists based after years of investigation and science with a few selected pictures of your birds. Imperator are beautiful, but Pavo muticus muticus are by far much more shiny and colorful.

Dear Jaques,

somebody told you not the truth!
If this male is breed in 2016 it can be for 100% not an Offspring from this female, because this female is from 2015 and this means impossible to get any egg from her in 2016!

Another thing is 90% of the males are fertilize earliest with 3 years this means 2018. As you can see here is something wrong!

Second I always wrote that my birds are coming from the north of Thailand (Golden Triangle). It is true there is a small difference compared to the population which is located in the middle of Thailand.

I don’t change any facts from scientists. I just once mentioned that they are more colourful than the most birds of muticus muticus which we have here in Europe in our breeding stocks.

Never then less you are invited to visit me to see that my birds are looking as shown on the pictures and that the picutres are not photoshopped.

White feathers are a common problem within our captive breeding stocks. It has nothing to do with pureness.
I had a long exchange of experiences with a breeder who has also a veterinarian background. We know that green peafowl are having the generic disposition to get white feather, when they kept in captivity. This is something which you can see in captive population of wild turkeys too. It is a metabolism problem which have different reasons:

Based on my observation and the observation of this breeder we could see the following main reasons for it:

- Laying much more eggs (in wild max. two clutches)

- Higher stress level in our aviaries, because it is not normal to be so closed 24h to an adult male

- Vermin like coccidiosis. The ground in our aviaries are much more contaminated than in wild

- Not balanced and optimal feed

You can have females which having white feathers and after they are at another place or after the next moulting they have no white feathers anymore. This cannot be genetic issue. Think about what I wrote and if you like we can have a closer discussion about it.

Now my last question, how are doing the import birds which you got in 2012 & 2013 from me? I never heard anything from you since long time.

Regards

Reinhold
 
Hello Mr. Reinhold,

-there is a missunderstanding - I never wrote that this male should be offspring of this female with white feathers. They are both at the same breeder, but not related. The female is 2015, the male 2016.
-I don´t believe your declaration with white feathers being true.
-I never had any birds from your farm, you must see another person on my place.

sorry
 
No Problem, then I mixed you up with another guy. But I want to say this male is for sure not an Offspring from any studbook bird!
Because I don't know anybody who would be able to breed birds in 2016!
Regarding the white feathers a detailed report is scheduled which give much more Facts About it.
But never then less you are wellkome to visit me to see my breeding birds with your own eye if you don't blieve that they don't look like on the Pictures.
Regards
Reinhold
 
White feathers ...
This bird shows epistasis, a genetic phenomenon that appears, when the genetic of the subspecies is unpure - so mixed. It appears easily at females in the 3rd year of age, while they get adult. Harder on males, but this happens too.

Not pure .... crossed with what?

BIG_0014098319.jpg


At two years old ...a green peacock has medals on the wing!
 
Last edited:
What should this pic show us ?
This is a normal raised and devolved male, ok.
The one I posted is an imperator male of the studbook birds what is NOT normal in developing, presumably because it was bred too late in the yearly season. The people from the farm did post the "last hatched chicken 2016" at July 31st -seen on facebook-. And this surely is one of them.
What do I want to say with that ?
This is not an accusation ! Breeding endangered birds should take any possible chances to multiply stocks. But raising chicks 4 - 5 month after the first ones where born here in europe, where summer ends at august, is adversely. We should not do this with green peafowl, what need 1 complete year to come to adult size. These late hatched chickens do not receive the summer climate they need the first 3 month and will be behind the normal developing nearly 1 year. So this male, it has the size and coloring of a 1 year old, but is 2 years of age. Even white feathers under the beak/face, and no golden triangle on the wing bow, as it should have with 2 years. And this disadvantage will stay for the whole live. It will never come to normal developing. Always will stay small as a female and underdeveloped.
That is what I want to show.
If you would be an experienced breeder of green peafowl you would know that. The way you defend any criticism regarding the PMI-TN Imperator birds, makes me believe, you also possess some of them. Undoubtely not late hatched ones. So good luck with your breeding and any sucess with your birds, but please try not to doubt all other reportings that do not go in your direction. There are nice birds in the PMI - program, - but not all. And a keeper of an official european studbook is in the duty of a special care because it turns around saving endangered birds, and not thinking of marketing all goods that are reachable. A person that sells 4 week old chicken of the studbook program without rings and paperwork !!! - here should be checked different things !

Epistasis does appear in about 80 - 90 % at females second year of age, that´s what the state of knowledge is. The phenomenon this MALE monal shows, does not seem to be epistasis, it might be a genetic disorder (mutation) other way. Here seems to be a genetic change that will be hereditable, epistasis is not. This way the complete white peafowl stocks were "produced" in the UK decades before. The white feather parts get more and more with every new generation, if you pair the fitting individuals. Epistasis does not follow to the next generation. I don´t think these 2 birds are to compare, it seems to be different cases.
 
Dear Jaques,

you are referring above to my Facebook post from 31.07.2016. First of all, it is not my intention to breed all eggs! The reason why I hatched this late some chicks was, for this male (Cäsar) and female (Sissi) it was the first time when she was five years that she was laying!

She laid exact 5 eggs from 17.6.2016 up to 28.06.2016 not one more. To have this blood in the population I was forced to breed them even it was late. I know this so precise because I register in the data base every egg.

From this five eggs I got 3 chicks 1 male and 2 females and all are wearing leg bands and have developed normally.

Here are a picture of this male with 9 months. I asked the owner to send me some actual pictures. I hope I will get it soon, that you can see there is no problem with the development, I will post it then here especially for you!
imperator_17_jungtiere_010.JPG

About the male you have posted here I don’t know anything. If it is a pure green, I expect he developed that bad due to terrible keeping conditions. Once you wrote that he were wearing leg bands which have to be removed by an operation. If somebody not realize, that the leg bands are growing in, this shows me how much care he take to the bird.

Birds which are registered in the studbook are all leaving my place with closed leg bands otherwise you never will know it later. This male has no ring and this means he is and will never be part of the studbook wherever he is coming from.
I checked my papers in 2016 just one pair out of the studbook were going to France and this is an acutal Video of it.

I wish you a good time and when I will get the actual picture of this bird you will see it here.

Best regards
Reinhold
 

New posts New threads Active threads

Back
Top Bottom