Post Phoenix Pics Please

[stevearino]

Yeah, I kept thinking about this one all day. All I came up with is that one would have to be dom. White and one recessive white and one would be black under the white. But that is pretty far fetched, however it could happen as I have dom white and recessive white here. More than likely, I would say Toni has guessed right on this one however. Just doesn't seem possible and isn't possible with two rec. white birds. Unless you are like cy and have splash red (also called rec. white) and true recessive white. Which will cross together if pure strands and produce colored birds. Or so Cy said his did. And that is how we ended up with bbreds.

I am relatively certain that no other bird in my flocks have bred to my hen. She has been isolated with the white roo since I have had them, and I have had them for nearly 2 months or more if I remember right. Not only that, but the first 6 or 7 eggs she laid were unfertile. This was the first of my fertile phoenix eggs. I don't know if the chick is "pure black", all I know is that the hair is completely black so far. And I don't know the genes of my white birds, so I don't know if they are "pure white".

On a sad note, my phoenix chick died this morning. There were some complications in the hatch that I didn't see when I posted a few days ago, and I don't think it absorbed all of the yolk sack before it was out of the shell. Broke my heart, but at least I got to see that it wasn't going to be white. I have more in the incubator so we'll see what happens with them.

 

[nicalandia]

Something else breed your hen..it's impossible to get a black out of 2 solid white birds...

this is not correct.

you can have 2 solid white birds that are infact heterozygous for the dominant white gene(I/i+) and when crossed together they will produce some solid black chicks aswell white chicks

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

awesome! Thanks! I ordered a phoenix hen and she and several other chicks are coming in April 22, So excited!!!

yep I got one here from Toni Marie that was a 2002 hatched bird, that'd make him coming 11 years old this spring.

 

[Boggy Bottom Bantams]

this is not correct.

you can have 2 solid white birds that are infact heterozygous for the dominant white gene(I/i+) and when crossed together they will produce some solid black chicks aswell white chicks

while that is true in a general sence, it doesnt work for phoenix, which was what Toni Marie was talking about.

problem with that is

1) there are virtually no black Phoenix in the world to get the gene started. Toni-Marie imported some back in 2002 from Marc King but they were black x bb red and the males often had a good bit of red leakage.

Second problem is phoenix ( well your average available to the public Phoenix) are recessive white not dominate white and 99.9% of the time over silver duckwing.

so rec white over silver duckwing x rec white over silver duckwing = recessive white that just carry silver duckwing underneath. You will never in a million years get a solid black bird that way. Like Toni said, it's just impossible from a genetic point. Only way to get a black from a recessive white is the bird has to have solid black under the recessive white. Plus it would have to be bred to a non recessive white even then. With what was said about the over all world wide rarity of there being such a color in the breed, that just aint going to happen.

This is what most every white Phoenix in the world is unless you are a breeder working with genetics. Toni-Marie, Cy Hyde, Amanda, and myself are the only ones I know in the US that have dominate white in their phoenix lines there may be others but not many, so unless it came from one of them, there's no way it is a dominate white based bird.

Now birchen though also very rare can almost look solid black as chicks. I have recessive white that carry it under them as does some of the others I mentioned. But even then you should be able to get one if it was white to white based off the genetics that the breed is known for carrying on average.

 

[onagadori]

this is not correct.

you can have 2 solid white birds that are infact heterozygous for the dominant white gene(I/i+) and when crossed together they will produce some solid black chicks aswell white chicks

This is correct. But usually a dom white bird that is not homozygous appears smutty when over a black base. Or at least that is my experience with dom white longtails and pyle longtails. Here is a dom white hetro.

The bird behind him is recessive white (obviously homozygous)

So then the question is in my mind, does dom white dilute blue since they both dilute black to a pure white in the heterozygous state? I have never dealt with that. But I know one mottling gene will dilute blue and it appears mottled when it is a hetro. Thus acting as an incomplete dominant, while it normally seems recessive.
Would like your thoughts... Thanks

 

[onagadori]

while that is true in a general sence, it doesnt work for phoenix, which was what Toni Marie was talking about.

problem with that is

1)  there are virtually no black Phoenix in the world to get the gene started. Toni-Marie imported some back in 2002 from Marc King but they were black x bb red and the males often had a good bit of red leakage.

Second problem is phoenix  ( well your average available to the public Phoenix) are recessive white  not dominate white and 99.9% of the time over silver duckwing.

so rec white over silver duckwing x rec white over silver duckwing = recessive white that just carry silver duckwing underneath. You will never in a million years get a  solid black bird that way. Like Toni said, it's just impossible from a genetic point. Only way to get a black from a recessive white is the bird has to have  solid black under the recessive white. Plus it would have to be bred to a non recessive white even then.  With what  was said about the over all world wide rarity of there being such a color in the breed, that just aint going to happen.

This is what most every white Phoenix  in the world is unless you are a  breeder working with genetics. Toni-Marie, Cy Hyde, Amanda, and myself are the only ones I know in the US that have dominate white in their phoenix lines there may be others but not many, so unless it came from one of them, there's no way it is a dominate white based bird. 

Now birchen though also very rare can almost look solid black as chicks. I have recessive white that carry it under them as does some of the others I mentioned. But even then you should be able to get one if it was white to white based off the genetics that the breed is known for carrying on average.

There is a good chance they are not full phoenix. I looked back at the pics. the roo is supposed to be two years old, right.. Unless he just molted, he isn't really what I would consider pure. So what if it had dom white leghorn in it? I have many dom whites here , but most are pied/mottled. This makes them appear like little Dalmatians when born. White with black spots all over....

 

[onagadori]

Other than the obvious quality differences and closed feathers on the hen. I will note the large amount of red in their ear lobes as seen on page 235 I think. May be 234.. Thus leading me to believe they may in fact be dom white. However, we know there are different types of recessive white. Some even showing color and are easily selected for. The Kriner whites were what the old timers called red splash which was white with a few colored feathers and always were born with a white spot in the head. The true recessive whites were solid white with white or yellow legs and had no spot in the head when born. I will note again that Cy crossed both lines and got bbred birds. Which is where our current stock came from. Thus he crossed what appeared to be two recessive white birds and got bbreds. (His story not mine).. So when looking back in an old genetics book, I came across the two as listed separately and the red splashes (white with a few colored feathers) were actually not considered recessive white. They may of originally been red birds under the white and that is why they called it "red" splash. However, that is just what came out for the first time when he crossed them. BBREDS. I suppose we don't know all there is to know about genetics. But these birds are in my opinion not full phoenix and possibly may have white leghorn in them. So we will know more when the next eggs hatch.

The bird pictured has black in his hackle and saddle feathers.

 

[nicalandia]

while that is true in a general sence, it doesnt work for phoenix, which was what Toni Marie was talking about.

problem with that is

1) there are virtually no black Phoenix in the world to get the gene started. Toni-Marie imported some back in 2002 from Marc King but they were black x bb red and the males often had a good bit of red leakage.

Second problem is phoenix ( well your average available to the public Phoenix) are recessive white not dominate white and 99.9% of the time over silver duckwing.

you dont need a self black bird to create a self white bird using dominant white, introducing dominant white to the gene pool is not as complex as one may think

 

[nicalandia]

This is correct. But usually a dom white bird that is not homozygous appears smutty when over a black base. Or at least that is my experience with dom white longtails and pyle longtails.

I have had heterozygous dominant white birds(white leghorn cross) that when adult have been completly white

White with black spots all over....

white/yellow chick down with black spots are signs of heterozygous white.

lets take a look at California whites chicks which are the cross of californa grey and white leghorn

and as I said before, there are many ways to create self white birds using dominant white, for example: Dominant white on a Silver Duckwing background, dominant white will turn the black breast,tails and fly feathers white, while the hackles, saddles and wing triangle will remain silver looking. also this can work on silver birchen birds..

 

[onagadori]

I have had heterozygous dominant white birds(white leghorn cross) that when adult have been completly white




white/yellow chick down with black spots are signs of heterozygous white.

lets take a look at California whites chicks which are the cross of californa grey and white leghorn

 

and as I said before, there are many ways to create self white birds using dominant white, for example: Dominant white on a Silver Duckwing background, dominant white will turn the black breast,tails and fly feathers white, while the hackles, saddles and wing triangle will remain silver looking. also this can work on silver birchen birds..

right, but mine are pied mottled which causes them to have some colored feathers as adults as well. Was just using them as an illustration. The chick which emerged from the crossing was black which is why Aubrey was stating that there are very few black phoenix here. Of course, I have black phoenix that were not from the import, so it is entirely possible that they could produce black. However, all we have established is that the birds are not recessive white, or at least one of them is not. Thus meaning dom white is in them and they are someone's creation and not your run of the mill white phoenix. My recessive whites and dom whites are also silver duckwing, black, barred, or any other combination under the white so long as on the dom white birds, they have no autosomal red pigment to show, any black and white pattern could be under the dom white. But since the chick was born black, we all assumed it was black or possibly birchen. But we never saw the chick to know by coloration. Blue and charcoal have also been known to be under the dom white since they are just black dilutes.