RIR's and New Hampshire Reds?

[punky rooster]

Quote:
If you think that then you have a lot to learn about Reds [or chickens in general].

If you think so, OK.

Chris

I agree with you Chris, I have a lot to learn about chickens. But that does not mean that your RIR birds are any more true to breed than mine are. It just means that your birds have been bred to look a specific way.

I have RIR birds because while I was researching prior to purchase, the information I found on the breed fit very well into my goals. If they were a broody breed, I probably wouldn't have any other breed. I want a vigorous, hearty, sustainable flock, just like the folks in RI & MA back in the 1840s. Now if that's not heritage.

A good percentage of hatcheries sell cross bred chickens as, "pure bred".
The best example would be the chicks that they call Araucanas other examples would be -
Wyandottes with single combs,
Rhode Island Whites with single combs,
Rhode Island Red,
Barred Rocks,
Dominique

If will mislead the buyer with these breeds who is to say they aren't misleading buyers on all the other breeds they sell?

So with that being said, I would believe that yes Bob's, or Don Nelson or mine or any other person that got there Red's from a good breeder are more pure bred than hatchery stock/ yours.

Chris

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:
could you show pics?

This is the only recent picture I have of the McMurray birds. It is a 12 month old Rooster and not a good shot. he was just over 8 1/2 lbs when this pic was taken. If your really interested, I can take pics and post them.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/39612_steve_0003.jpg

please do

 

[spartacus_63]

A good percentage of hatcheries sell cross bred chickens as, "pure bred".

Is this an opinion or do you have facts to back this up? Maybe just maybe, hatcheries do not sell birds to win bird shows. Maybe they sell birds to produce what ever the buyer is looking for, ie eggs, meat, cold hardy, gentle, broody etc etc. And if a hatchery has a good trusted group of breeders that can produce birds (eggs) of a breed that perform to the expected standards and breed true then I think they have fulfilled their requirements.

So with that being said, I would believe that yes Bob's, or Don Nelson or mine or any other person that got there Red's from a good breeder are more pure bred than hatchery stock/ yours.

Have you, or any of the other SQ breeders ever cross bred your birds to correct an SOP weakness? I hear that breeders do that.

If your line of birds is MORE RIR than mine, why is it that the APA doesn't exclude my birds? Why is it that my birds meet all the requirements of the ALBC for a heritage breed? Could it be that your birds are just prettier than mine? That is my belief (although I have never seen your birds.) Not that yours have MORE RIR blood in it. I have had these same arguments with dog breeders when field dogs were looked down upon by the show folks. I had some of the best field dogs in my area. I had a line of good hunters. Most of them looked good too, but I never won any ribbons because I never pursued that venture. I still had all my pups sold before they ever took their first breath and I was getting top dollar for dogs that could hunt and produce pups that could hunt.

Again I will say that this discussion has digressed from the OPs simple question of the difference between RIR & NH birds, to the unbending stance that just because a bird comes from a hatchery, it MUST be cross bred.

I do not and am not likely to agree with your opinion about pureness of breed. Until they start registering pedigrees or mapping DNA, there will never be a definitive answer.

So again we have settled nothing.

This is a painting of a RIR pair from c 1915;​

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:
Is this an opinion or do you have facts to back this up? Maybe just maybe, hatcheries do not sell birds to win bird shows. Maybe they sell birds to produce what ever the buyer is looking for, ie eggs, meat, cold hardy, gentle, broody etc etc. And if a hatchery has a good trusted group of breeders that can produce birds (eggs) of a breed that perform to the expected standards and breed true then I think they have fulfilled their requirements.

So with that being said, I would believe that yes Bob's, or Don Nelson or mine or any other person that got there Red's from a good breeder are more pure bred than hatchery stock/ yours.

Have you, or any of the other SQ breeders ever cross bred your birds to correct an SOP weakness? I hear that breeders do that.

If your line of birds is MORE RIR than mine, why is it that the APA doesn't exclude my birds? Why is it that my birds meet all the requirements of the ALBC for a heritage breed? Could it be that your birds are just prettier than mine? That is my belief (although I have never seen your birds.) Not that yours have MORE RIR blood in it. I have had these same arguments with dog breeders when field dogs were looked down upon by the show folks. I had some of the best field dogs in my area. I had a line of good hunters. Most of them looked good too, but I never won any ribbons because I never pursued that venture. I still had all my pups sold before they ever took their first breath and I was getting top dollar for dogs that could hunt and produce pups that could hunt.

Again I will say that this discussion has digressed from the OPs simple question of the difference between RIR & NH birds, to the unbending stance that just because a bird comes from a hatchery, it MUST be cross bred.

I do not and am not likely to agree with your opinion about pureness of breed. Until they start registering pedigrees or mapping DNA, there will never be a definitive answer.

So again we have settled nothing.

This is a painting of a RIR pair from c 1915;[URL]https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/uploads/39612_rhode_island_red_1915_lithograph.jpg[/URL]​

how do you know if there is not white leghorn in you birds blood?(to boost egg laying)
the breeders we are talking about have some of the oldest known lines of RIR. and you challenge them with a hatchery bird? show us pics of your "RIR" and we can show you the difference.
I am just trying to prove Chris's point.
punky

 

[punky rooster]

another thing the birds you got you say are RIR, then why do they look the same as the NH from hatcheries?

 

[Chris09]

This is a painting of a RIR pair from c 1915;

I wouldn't trust that painting much-
Here are sketches of RI Reds of that time.

1910

1909

Is this an opinion or do you have facts to back this up?

If you want facts look at the " Rhode Island Whites with single combs" look at Wyandottes with single combs you mean your going to sit there and say there not cross breeds.
I have been to some hatcheries "farms" and I have seen there "breeding Pens"

Maybe they sell birds to produce what ever the buyer is looking for, ie eggs, meat, cold hardy, gentle, broody etc etc.

Now your just make stuff up...... I have some hatchery stock birds and I know that the, "meat, cold hardy, gentle, broody" part is a crock. [Cornish cross's excluded]

Have you, or any of the other SQ breeders ever cross bred your birds to correct an SOP weakness?

I have'nt did this and I know of no breeder that has.

If your line of birds is MORE RIR than mine, why is it that the APA doesn't exclude my birds?

Read your SOP page 32 under DQ's.

I think it would be best if you did more research on the breed and talk to some people that raise the breed and know the breed and not take the word of a hatchery that is only out to make money.

Chris​

 

[punky rooster]

Quote:
If you want facts look at the " Rhode Island Whites with single combs" look at Wyandottes with single combs you mean your going to sit there and say there not cross breeds.
I have been to some hatcheries "farms" and I have seen there "breeding Pens"

Maybe they sell birds to produce what ever the buyer is looking for, ie eggs, meat, cold hardy, gentle, broody etc etc.

Now your just make stuff up...... I have some hatchery stock birds and I know that the, "meat, cold hardy, gentle, broody" part is a crock. [Cornish cross's excluded]

Have you, or any of the other SQ breeders ever cross bred your birds to correct an SOP weakness?

I have did this and I know of no breeder that has.

If your line of birds is MORE RIR than mine, why is it that the APA doesn't exclude my birds?

Read your SOP page 32 under DQ's.

I think it would be best if you did more research on the breed and talk to some people that raise the breed and know the breed and not take the word of a hatchery that is only out to make money.

Chris​

Chris knows his stuff​

 

[Chris09]

Quote:
If you want facts look at the " Rhode Island Whites with single combs" look at Wyandottes with single combs you mean your going to sit there and say there not cross breeds.
I have been to some hatcheries "farms" and I have seen there "breeding Pens"

Maybe they sell birds to produce what ever the buyer is looking for, ie eggs, meat, cold hardy, gentle, broody etc etc.

Now your just make stuff up...... I have some hatchery stock birds and I know that the, "meat, cold hardy, gentle, broody" part is a crock. [Cornish cross's excluded]

Have you, or any of the other SQ breeders ever cross bred your birds to correct an SOP weakness?

I haven't did this and I know of no breeder that has.

If your line of birds is MORE RIR than mine, why is it that the APA doesn't exclude my birds?

Read your SOP page 32 under DQ's.

I think it would be best if you did more research on the breed and talk to some people that raise the breed and know the breed and not take the word of a hatchery that is only out to make money.

Chris​

Chris knows his stuff​

Thank you.​

 

[Illia]

spartacus_63 - Curious, you were showing how your birds met the heritage requirements. . .

Do you have any photos of your hens to back up that they meet the APA SOP ?

Do you have any proof that they, their parents, grandparents, have been bred to or neat the SOP?

Did they come from stock who has been bred to such?

How much do you HENS weigh? You show a rooster, sure, which is from a hatchery that is FAR from heritage, but what of your hens? And where's a side view of the rooster?


Also if we've settled to nothing, not answer the OP's original question. . . Enlighten us, and tell us, have you helped in answering it?

You also said: "Why is it that my birds meet all the requirements of the ALBC for a heritage breed? " - It is because the ALBC counts hatchery stock birds. Read their explaination on the website.

Also, consider that they don't even know the difference between Araucanas and Easter Eggers. (which further puts that they hardly even know what an Ameraucana is. . . ) Clearly they're not the decider of what Rhode Island Reds should be counted as true and which bird is actually supporting the population and which is "commercial bred."

In fact I always like to wonder, what do they consider commercial bred vs normal RIR's if they count hatcheries? The only more "commercial" you can get from hatcheries are egg factories, which use Sex Links anyway, which are not a purebed bird. Obviously the ALBC still has some research to do. . . .

 

[spartacus_63]

how do you know if there is not white leghorn in you birds blood?(to boost egg laying)

Because the people I bought my birds from told me and they have been in business since 1917. I do not think a business would last that long by misleading it's customers. I can also ask you the same question. How do you know your birds were not cross bred to make them conform more to a SOP? If my birds were crossed with leghorns, then my birds would not breed true. I have not found that to be the case yet. I am only on my second generation of RIRs though.

and you challenge them with a hatchery bird?

I have NOT challenged anyone. I do not agree with Chris' opinion, that is not a challenge. I have also stated on numerous occasions that Chris & Bob and any other breeder that raise and breed for SQ have "prettier" birds, birds that are more in line with the APA SOP. That does not make them MORE RIR than mine. If you look at the history of the RIR breed you will see that different breeders bred for different qualities. Did some cross with Mediterranean stock to boost egg production? I do not know, but it would not surprise me. I will then ask you, have any of the "Heritage" breeders ever crossed their strain to improve a SOP weakness? As far as I can tell, and I am no expert in poultry breeding, it is an accepted process. I would suspect that is why the standards of linage are as vague as they are.

show us pics of your "RIR" and we can show you the difference.

What really are you going to show me between a couple of pics?

I am just trying to prove Chris's point.

What is it that you think is Chris' point?

another thing the birds you got you say are RIR, then why do they look the same as the NH from hatcheries?

Could you be more specific as to which birds you are speaking of?​