Save The House Sparrows (STHS)

[DurhamDuck]

Quote:
God said we should be stewards of creation. Sitting around letting invasive species destroy ecosystems is not what He wanted.

I think you are young and will eventually look back on this and laugh. I said things like this when I was little too.

Quote: Because the house sparrow DOES NOT BELONG HERE. It's from Europe. If you want to make this religious, fine. God put them in Europe, in an ecosystem where their nature did not harm other species. Man messed with creation and brought them here, hurting other birds.

To say that house sparrows don't affect many birds is ignorant. Someone on this thread just said house sparrows pecked other birds to death!

Now I think we should leave the Creator out of this, as I'm pretty sure it's against forum rules.
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PS- sorry for double posting.

 

[CHICKEN CRAZY1]

I would never dream of killing a rat mouse or insect. That would be a horrible thing to do, I love all living things. If you didn't notice I am an animal rights activist, and animal rights is my life. I do not love killing weeds, because they are so great for the world. But I do eat plants, because unlike animals, plants don't feel pain, plants don't think, plants aren't being tortured. I don't eat animals, or animal products, because they come from a tortured animal who does feel pain, and does have a want to live. And I always feel bad when my chickens eat insects, but I can do nothing to stop it. But almost all my chickens are rescues, mostly from battery cages. But what makes you think, that a life is less important than soda? Or a bag of lifeless chicken food?

I know this is completely off subject,but have you heard of Joel Salatin? He is a farmer in the Shenandoah valley,Virginia. He believes that animals should not be in cages,out in the field doing what Chickens,Cows and pigs all do naturally. He grass feeds/finishes all his beef. He believes that the animal is the farmers PARTNER,not just a mass of organisms that commercial industries believe (e.i. How can I make this meat business bigger,make more money with less money?) He uses the 'pigness of the pig' and the 'cowness of the cow' (i.e. what they do naturally and what they love to do,to help build his farm.) When his animals are butchered,they are in low stress,Making the meat healthier. He says that for every life,there must be a sacrifice. For ex. in order for me to live,a carrot must die. It's still a carrot,but next year there will be more carrots to live where the carrot just died. He acknowledges that the life of the cow,or pig,or chickens is important and it is needed for the farm to thrive and be healthy. The animal enjoyed it's life being outside of a pen,and is giving us more by giving us it's life,in order for us to live. That is a real sacrifice. (Look him up! I don't like killing weeds or grass either. Weeds are important! Most are beautiful also!)

Yes, I realize that the attack on those nestlings wasn't entirely pointless, and this was the point. There were other nest boxes available, so he wasn't after the nesting site per se. This bird wasn't content with harassing the adult birds; by killing the ones that were stationary and therefore vulnerable (the chicks) he could reduce the population pressure in the area as a whole. The territorial imperative in this species is so strong, they don't just defend territory/resources against their own kind, they defend it against any species that might compete with them in any way. They don't "live and let live," or "share and share alike," they want it ALL (rather like some humans, huh?)

Yes,but,are those birds dieing out like the house sparrow?For ex. Bluebirds are rare becuase they have no natural nesting sites. Those nesting sites are old fence-posts etc. They are not going extinct because of the house sparrow. Not all species go extinct because of other animals!

God said we should be stewards of creation. Sitting around letting invasive species destroy ecosystems is not what He wanted.

I think you are young and will eventually look back on this and laugh. I said things like this when I was little too.

Because the house sparrow DOES NOT BELONG HERE. It's from Europe. If you want to make this religious, fine. God put them in Europe, in an ecosystem where their nature did not harm other species. Man messed with creation and brought them here, hurting other birds.

To say that house sparrows don't affect many birds is ignorant. Someone on this thread just said house sparrows pecked other birds to death!

Now I think we should leave the Creator out of this, as I'm pretty sure it's against forum rules.
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PS- sorry for double posting.

That's true,but just becuase they are not native here,doesn't mean we should let them die out! The lionfish was recently introduced into the atlantic ocean. It is not native there. It has no natural predetors,is poisionous,and is killing lots of other endangered fish and sea-life. Why don't we kill the lionfish then? If the goverment would quit messing with nature,we wouldn't be talking about this!!!!!! Sparrows would probably come over here anyway,as some species do migrate.

 

[Bunnylady]

Quote:

Ummmmm - since when are fence posts "natural nesting sites?" Bluebirds are cavity nesters; the natural place for those cavities are trees that are old or dead. We humans seem to have a problem with letting dead trees stand, though some are learning. Bluebirds hunt insects in open fields, so it isn't the hunting habitat that is being destroyed, it is the natural nest sites. Having an invasive species taking over the available nesting sites is adding insult to injury.

The lionfish was recently introduced into the atlantic ocean. It is not native there. It has no natural predetors,is poisionous,and is killing lots of other endangered fish and sea-life. Why don't we kill the lionfish then? If the goverment would quit messing with nature,we wouldn't be talking about this!!!!!!
You are welcome to go out there and kill all the Lionfish you want to - step out my front door, and keep going about 3/4 mile east. Try not to get stung.

 

[CHICKEN CRAZY1]

That's my point. House sparrows are too aggressive and assertive. They drive out native birds, killing them or leaving them homeless. They cause all sorts of destruction. To save them is to destroy an entire ecosystem. They do not belong here. Even if we had not touched the bluebird habitat, the house sparrows would have destroyed it by driving out them from nests. This is not nature. It is the opposite of nature.

This is like putting a dog into a ring of rats and saying, "Sure, the dog is a little feisty, but that's nature."

There is nothing natural about introducing an animal into an environment and letting it kill native animals.

This is like starting a "Save the Florida pythons" or "Save the rabid raccoons" campaign. You're hurting countless animals by doing this. Extinction cannot be undone. Look up the passenger pigeon. They are gone forever.

House sparrows are UNNATURAL in North America. If you truly love nature, you will send it back to the way it was before, by helping. Make nests for native birds and keep house sparrows out of it. It doesn't matter how cute they are. They are not good for the environment.

How do you know that the baby birds wern't going to die anyway? They could have died when they were being fledged or a cat could have gotten them. How about a hawk? Any of these things could have happened to those cicks! If we leave God's creation alone,(i.e. quit killing sparrow chicks and shaking goose eggs cause they poop in the manicured lawn.) it will take care of itself. Yes,I understand that some animals need legal intervention,but we don't have to kill sparrows to save other native birds! We have sevral bird houses that other birds raise their chicks in as well,including blue birds. We have lots of sparrows too,but we live next to a wooded area where they have access to a large space and they stay out of each other's territories. Yes,ocasionally we find a dead chick,but that is the five-billion cats fault as they are mostly barn swallows that are dead. The blue bird's houses have plates so that larger birds can't get in,and there are natural cavities for other birds to nest. See what I mean? How do you know that there arn't wooded areas for native species to nest? The sparrows are here,so we let them live. What are you going to do? Kill every last house sparrow until they are all dead in the U.S? Why don't you start killing the mustangs again becuase they are taking grass from the cattle? The land can support it'self,It has since creation. God made it that way. If the deer are overpopulated,they will get a disease and most will die. The stronger,smarted ones will survive and pass on the genes to make a smarter,better generation of deer. No,I do not like that lot's of deer have to die,but it makes life better for the next generation. The same is for the native birds. The grackle,starling,bluejay and house sparrow are helping to control the population. Not many cats or hawks can catch birds,so if we got rid of the house sparrow,native species would be TOO numerous and they would start killing each other too. Nature can take care of itself. We as stewardsof God's garden,are entrusted to help save the sparrows and help build and make the forest stronger. We can do this without killing tons of sparrows. By cutting back old,diseased trees,leaving space for newer younger,healthier trees,we make the forest better. By putting out nesting boxes,and not shaking the bird's eggs,leaving out seed and enjoying creation,we can help the birds too.

 

[CHICKEN CRAZY1]

You are welcome to go out there and kill all the Lionfish you want to - step out my front door, and keep going about 3/4 mile east. Try not to get stung.

You forget,they are supposevly still under government protection,until they declare open season. Yet they complian that they kill all the fish.

 

[CHICKEN CRAZY1]

It's a natural life cycle. Things die or are killed for food. Killing just to get rid of them is wrong. Yes,we must have food and to go hunt a deer or rabbit for lunch is not bad. I's a sacrifice. In order for me to live,somthing must die and that is noble for the animal. If I take care of a broiler chicken,I understand that eventually I must eat it. I care for it and make sure it's life is comfortable and is enjoyable for the chicken. When the time comes for it's sacrifice,I thank God for giving us animals,and for giving me that chicken that I cared for so well. It had a good life and I am happy for that. I also thank God that he entrusted humans with his wonderful creation. That is a life cycle. Next year another chicken will take the place of the first one,and It will live happily there until the time for it's sacrifice. God says we can do that. (That's from Joel Salatin.) But we ARE NOT supposed to kill them if they pose no threat to humans. If a mountian lion is in the woods minding it's own bisnuess,that's fine. But once it kills someone,it poses a threat to humans. Sparrows are not a threat to people. They are just combing the life cycle. It's unpleasent,yucky, and I don't want to witness it,but all things must die eventually. Even plants. Some calves die at birth. Some wolves die of starvation in a famine. Some native birds die at chick stage. But we do not have to kill sparrows just becuase they are doing their job. They are here on earth to control the population. They would be doing that in the U.K too! Lionfish take down the population in thier native ocean,and an enemy takes it down too. Same with the sparrow,but we don't have to overkill these two animals,and make them go extinct do we? They are here for a reason.

 

[DurhamDuck]

First I want to apologize if I sounded angry. I'm not trying to hurt any of your feelings- especially not the feelings of a Spirit SOTC fan! I remember seeing that in theaters. It's a great movie.

Quote: I did not know about the lionfish being introduced. Those are the strange-looking striped species correct? I don't think there is a way we could kill them since they're underwater (without hurting other fish) but maybe we should collect them from the waters. I know people like to keep them as pets.

I think non-native, invasive species should die out ONLY where they have been introduced. I do not hate them, and think we should kill them as painlessly as possible. I just think they are hurting the ecosystem, and therefore, other animals.

Think of it this way. Some people around here let their cats roam around outside. They kill birds and mice and other animals. That is wrong. Bring the cat inside so it isn't killing wildlife. Cats are carnivores, but at least feed them farm animals that do not have babies to take care of!

Quote: I realize humans are mostly to blame for bluebirds, but remember, the sparrows being here is because of humans too. Most animals that go extinct do so because of humans messing with their ecosystem. Even the wooly mammoth was hunted by us. I'm not saying sparrows are the only cause of bluebirds dying, but they are definitely not helping.
Quote: I know you weren't talking to me, but I have to say that I have heard great things about Salatin. He is right about everything being a sacrifice. Blades of grass give their lives to cows, which give their lives to us (And dogs, cats, etc), which eventually "become the grass" to quote the Lion King LOL. Even the soil and the water is alive, full of bacteria. It's said there's more than a million bacteria in one spec of dirt! It's amazing.

edited to remove off-topic parts

 

[CHICKEN CRAZY1]

First I want to apologize if I sounded angry. I'm not trying to hurt any of your feelings- especially not the feelings of a Spirit SOTC fan! I remember seeing that in theaters. It's a great movie.

I did not know about the lionfish being introduced. Those are the strange-looking striped species correct? I don't think there is a way we could kill them since they're underwater (without hurting other fish) but maybe we should collect them from the waters. I know people like to keep them as pets.

I think non-native, invasive species should die out ONLY where they have been introduced. I do not hate them, and think we should kill them as painlessly as possible. I just think they are hurting the ecosystem, and therefore, other animals.

Think of it this way. Some people around here let their cats roam around outside. They kill birds and mice and other animals. That is wrong. Bring the cat inside so it isn't killing wildlife. Cats are carnivores, but at least feed them farm animals that do not have babies to take care of!

I realize humans are mostly to blame for bluebirds, but remember, the sparrows being here is because of humans too. Most animals that go extinct do so because of humans messing with their ecosystem. Even the wooly mammoth was hunted by us. I'm not saying sparrows are the only cause of bluebirds dying, but they are definitely not helping.
I know you weren't talking to me, but I have to say that I have heard great things about Salatin. He is right about everything being a sacrifice. Blades of grass give their lives to cows, which give their lives to us (And dogs, cats, etc), which eventually "become the grass" to quote the Lion King LOL. Even the soil and the water is alive, full of bacteria. It's said there's more than a million bacteria in one spec of dirt! It's amazing.

Roostersandhens, I have two things to say to you.

First, plants definitely feel pain. Plant a garden and you will see. They can be tortured. There is a new show on Animal Planet called Tree Houses or something. What the show doesn't say is that, sometimes the trees die under all that weight. If you have killed the tree and then used the wood, it could have supported the weight but a living tree cannot. The stress is too much and it will succumb to disease. Eating a carrot or tomato is no more or less pain-inducing than eating a rabbit or pig (Assuming it did not come from a factory farm). The creature still dies, but its death becomes our life.

Two,do not feel bad about killing animals when you have to. It is hard, yes, but in the end it is worth it. By killing one house sparrow you will save many future generations of native birds, Where I live, bluebirds are so rare, most young people have never seen one. You can buy a specially designed bluebird house, but house sparrows get into it instead. In the last year, more and more people have been chasing out or destroying sparrows and guess what? I saw the first family of bluebirds this year, that I have ever seen my whole life. You don't understand because sparrows are not so bad where you live, but believe me, they will take over if you don't do something about it.

It's like eating a farm animal. If we did not eat them, they would go extinct, It sounds strange but think about it. What if there were no pork farms or beef farms? The pigs and cows would go extinct. Go to the livestock conservancy website and look at all the rare breeds. Many of the pigs were bred to make lard for cooking, but now doctors say lard is bad for you, so guess what? Now these pigs are going extinct because no one wants them. If we support farms that raise animals for eggs or meat or other things, the farmers will have more money, and if they have more money they can breed and better provide for the animals, so that the next generations can have them too. I own a rare breed of meat goose. Today Americans do not eat geese, so they are rare- critically endangered. There are less than 500 in the entire country! They could be gone forever. That is unacceptable to me.

Let's appreciate plants, animals, bacteria, humans, and others for what they are- no more, no less.

Almost everything you say is true. Ecept for the whole non-native species thing. And the cats. If you want all the non-native species to die out,the only animals we have left are Deer,Bears, wolves, rabbits ect. Horses and cattle came over during the expeditions to america,so they are not techniaclly a native species. Those chickens in your backyard? The same for them. Most breeds came over from England. So do you want those 'non-native' species to all die out?

Cats are doing thier jobs in controlling the bird and mouse population. If they wern't there to do that,Mice would be in everything. I don't like the way they play with their prey, and I don't want to see them do it. But it has to be done. The reality is that things will die. But we don't have to kill them for just doing their job! (Btw I love Joel Salatin's books. Have you read any?)

 

[Bunnylady]

How do you know that the baby birds wern't going to die anyway? They could have died when they were being fledged or a cat could have gotten them. How about a hawk? Any of these things could have happened to those cicks!

The vast majority of any season's young will die before they manage to breed. That goes for most species.

If we leave God's creation alone,(i.e. quit killing sparrow chicks and shaking goose eggs cause they poop in the manicured lawn.) it will take care of itself.

The sparrow is only here because someone interfered with that Creation in the first place, just like the goose is there because of the manicured lawn (geese are supposed to migrate!)
Yes,I understand that some animals need legal intervention,but we don't have to kill sparrows to save other native birds!

The European House Finch is not a native bird . . . .

Why don't you start killing the mustangs again becuase they are taking grass from the cattle?

Actually, they are removing/killing mustangs, partly for this very reason (and of course, cattle aren't native, either).

The land can support it'self,It has since creation. God made it that way. If the deer are overpopulated,they will get a disease and most will die.

Where does this disease come from? In most states in the U.S, the greatest "predator" of deer is the automobile. Since there is no hunting allowed in urban areas, deer flourish, as do their parasites (ticks, for example), and homeowners have to plant deer proof plants to have any landscaping at all. The growth in numbers of deer is thought by some to play a large part in the recent coyote invasion of the East coast (coyotes aren't native to the Eastern U. S, but oh, well, they take care of the feral cats).

The same is for the native birds. The grackle,starling,bluejay and house sparrow are helping to control the population. Not many cats or hawks can catch birds,so if we got rid of the house sparrow,native species would be TOO numerous and they would start killing each other too.

Bluebirds do not kill birds, they eat insects. Chickadees don't kill birds, either. MOST types of hawks prey on birds at least part of the time; and I don't mean chickens! LOTS of cats kill birds; in some studies, domestic cats have proven to be the single greatest (traceable) cause of mortality in native songbirds.


Nature can take care of itself. We as stewardsof God's garden,are entrusted to help save the sparrows and help build and make the forest stronger. We can do this without killing tons of sparrows. By cutting back old,diseased trees,leaving space for newer younger,healthier trees,we make the forest better. By putting out nesting boxes,and not shaking the bird's eggs,leaving out seed and enjoying creation,we can help the birds too.

The lack of understanding about natural systems in this post is amazing. What in the world are they teaching you in schools these days??!

 

[ChicknsRock]

I think you are young and will eventually look back on this and laugh. I said things like this when I was little too.

I will never look back at this and laugh. And I am not little. I think you're the one who sounds childish when you say stuff like "They kill other birds. They deserve to die" or whatever.

Roostersandhens, I have two things to say to you.

First, plants definitely feel pain. Plant a garden and you will see. They can be tortured. There is a new show on Animal Planet called Tree Houses or something. What the show doesn't say is that, sometimes the trees die under all that weight. If you have killed the tree and then used the wood, it could have supported the weight but a living tree cannot. The stress is too much and it will succumb to disease. Eating a carrot or tomato is no more or less pain-inducing than eating a rabbit or pig (Assuming it did not come from a factory farm). The creature still dies, but its death becomes our life.

Two,do not feel bad about killing animals when you have to. It is hard, yes, but in the end it is worth it. By killing one house sparrow you will save many future generations of native birds, Where I live, bluebirds are so rare, most young people have never seen one. You can buy a specially designed bluebird house, but house sparrows get into it instead. In the last year, more and more people have been chasing out or destroying sparrows and guess what? I saw the first family of bluebirds this year, that I have ever seen my whole life. You don't understand because sparrows are not so bad where you live, but believe me, they will take over if you don't do something about it.

It's like eating a farm animal. If we did not eat them, they would go extinct, It sounds strange but think about it. What if there were no pork farms or beef farms? The pigs and cows would go extinct. Go to the livestock conservancy website and look at all the rare breeds. Many of the pigs were bred to make lard for cooking, but now doctors say lard is bad for you, so guess what? Now these pigs are going extinct because no one wants them. If we support farms that raise animals for eggs or meat or other things, the farmers will have more money, and if they have more money they can breed and better provide for the animals, so that the next generations can have them too. I own a rare breed of meat goose. Today Americans do not eat geese, so they are rare- critically endangered. There are less than 500 in the entire country! They could be gone forever. That is unacceptable to me.

Let's appreciate plants, animals, bacteria, humans, and others for what they are- no more, no less.

So, what your saying is if I were to go out and kick a tree it would feel pain?

A birdhouse is not the only option for bluebirds. They have trees and cavities they can nest in, unless they are so rare where you live too.

Nothing is right about killing innocent sparrows. Nature has its plan, and it just happens that HS kill other birds. There are other animals species that do the same thing, but you can't hate them for it. Animals do know wrong. And here's my question:
Just a couple days ago I read about a boy who kicked a duck to death. He was arrested for it. How come people are arrested for animal abuse, yet THE CORNELL LAB OF ORNITHOLOGY encourages the killing of HS in one of their books? And why is there no law for the murderings of house sparrows? I call pulling a female out of her nest and stomping til it dies animal abuse! And it is.