Shadrach's Ex Battery and Rescued chickens thread.

[thistlewick]

Recent discussions about aggression and hierarchy prompted an idea I would like to explore. Your thoughts sought.

Some bird species are well known for their youngsters going through a phase wherein they practice to develop their motor skills - peregrine falcons, gulls, corvids for example.

Might some of the sort of behaviour that gets young roos a bad name (during what some of us call the jerk phase in a cockerel's life) otherwise be seen as them practicing and developing the skills they will need to protect the flock? Play fighting with each other (when there are more than 1 present) to prepare them for fighting for real when a predator appears? How else could they learn how to fight but with each other? Are we misreading an instinct to protect and defend as aggression?

When is the jerk phase considered over?

None of my current boys are even a year old yet and 3 are wonderful and 1 is 20 weeks old and is starting to think he's just amazing lolol (n o t, and no one else thinks he is, either hahahha)

@BDutch I have 52 Chickens, 48 of which are hens, 4 of which are Cockerels. I started with 18 (and no boys for a long time, they were separated and out of eyesight). This summer I had upwards of 90, but I sold a bunch and gave some away.

 

[kattabelly]

Is play fighting considered part of the "jerk phase"? In my mind, it's things like just jumping on hens and pullets - especially younger pullets that aren't even laying yet - that won't squat for them.

Speaking of which, yesterday's teenage cockerel entertainment was watching Rognvald attempt to wing dance (I think the term is useful shorthand even if it isn't actually a dance) at a pullet - only he was perched on the edge of a fish box at the time, so it ended up being more of a comically cautious sideways shuffle Both RIR boys are still trying the stealth neck grab too but getting knocked off and chased around for a bit, pretty much every time.

 

[Perris]

When is the jerk phase considered over?

I don't think there are any recognized definitions in this area (plus there's individual bird's personality variation of course). And I think kattabelly's point a little while ago about self-perpetuating perceptions plays into it; we see what we expect to see a lot of the time.

Is play fighting considered part of the "jerk phase"? In my mind, it's things like just jumping on hens and pullets - especially younger pullets that aren't even laying yet - that won't squat for them.

Yes we should probably distinguish the two main behaviours concerned, which both improve with practice, to wit defence and reproduction. In my experience, cockerels hatched together spar with each other about the same time they start grabbing females; finding their position in the hierarchy is a common interpretation of this behaviour. I tend to associate them both as behaviours belonging to the same phase of development. They and pullets may be chest-bumping etc from a few weeks old, but recognizable fights with a bit more spunk start up when they are getting to adult height and have adult plumage and become interested in females as mates. Very few of the spars result in blood being drawn, which is why I am now wondering if they are more often practice than serious bids to acquire or hold a certain status.

I'm not sure I've seen much discussion on BYC about 'play fighting'; I avoided the term (preferring 'practice') because the term 'play' risks muddying the waters (ornithology tends to the view that birds, with very few exceptions (like the kea), don't play). The term 'fighting' is used a lot on BYC without any discrimination, so muddies the waters in the opposite way. Clarifying what we mean when we use these words is key to making progress and not talking at cross purposes or past each other.

 

[kattabelly]

Huh. Now I'm wondering if I rarely see "practice" fighting because it doesn't happen that much here, or because I just mentally categorise it as chickens doing normal chicken things and not especially worthy of further observation.

To be clear - are you just suggesting minor squabbles are (at least partly, sometimes) "practice" fights, or that practice is sometimes the primary purpose?

 

[SimpleJenn]

Would the term "spar" work? Sparring is a practice fight and it's what we've been calling those little spats that don't end in hard feelings here. 2 of my cockerels will flare, jump at each other once or twice, then go right back to being together (sometimes even preening each other) like they are still best friends.
That said, only a couple of the pullets have started laying, and the near-hens I moved out from the run will mostly follow Cowspots. So competition isn't high yet.
They also will tackle each other off of unwilling pullets.
Blackberry, he is more polite to the girls and has been "mature" for longer. He was the first of the two to start suggesting nests, he tidbits, he wing shuffles, everything.

Dutch, he still jumps them but he's starting to get better. He treats Blackberry like the boss. He is super people friendly and is always begging for treats to hand out to the others.

My older cockerel CowSpots has very occasionally chased both of these boys, but he usually sticks with his girls and the guinea birds. He chases and mates first thing in the morning but otherwise is rather polite as well.


And then in the run there's Riddick, who is the leader and very polite to the hens other than chasing when I first open the coops. He doesn't mate them if he catches them, it seems to be just a "wake up, ladies!" Chase oddly. The ladies happily squat when he asks and he is so beloved I had a girl who managed to find one gap in the fence (now fixed) to return to him when I had tried to move her out to the free rangers. Another snuck into the run door underfoot when I went to close them up for the night.


Louis has only just started crowing and fingers crossed, will stay on Riddicks good side until I can build him his own pen in spring. Riddick will eat from the feeder at the same time as him so he must not view him as any sort of threat. I do want to seperate them so Louis and his "luxury birds" can be seperated, they are rather small and delicate.

 

[Perris]

Now I'm wondering if I rarely see "practice" fighting because it doesn't happen that much here, or because I just mentally categorise it as chickens doing normal chicken things and not especially worthy of further observation.

It doesn't happen much here either, but I think it is possible to differentiate between it and a squabble over something.

To be clear - are you just suggesting minor squabbles are (at least partly, sometimes) "practice" fights, or that practice is sometimes the primary purpose?

I think they're different things.

Would the term "spar" work? Sparring is a practice fight and it's what we've been calling those little spats that don't end in hard feelings here. 2 of my cockerels will flare, jump at each other once or twice, then go right back to being together (sometimes even preening each other) like they are still best friends.

Yes, that's exactly the sort of thing I have in mind.

 

[RoyalChick]

Recent discussions about aggression and hierarchy prompted an idea I would like to explore. Your thoughts sought.

Some bird species are well known for their youngsters going through a phase wherein they practice to develop their motor skills - peregrine falcons, gulls, corvids for example.

Might some of the sort of behaviour that gets young roos a bad name (during what some of us call the jerk phase in a cockerel's life) otherwise be seen as them practicing and developing the skills they will need to protect the flock? Play fighting with each other (when there are more than 1 present) to prepare them for fighting for real when a predator appears? How else could they learn how to fight but with each other? Are we misreading an instinct to protect and defend as aggression?

Interesting thought. And of course very common in mammals.

 

[Molpet]

It doesn't happen much here either, but I think it is possible to differentiate between it and a squabble over something.

I think they're different things.

Yes, that's exactly the sort of thing I have in mind.

Yes I agree that they are learning. Also establishing pecking order. I have pullets chest bumping each other too.

Later, the real fighting is usually challenging a flock master from a different flock. This is usually when I have too many cockerels without a flock. 4 coops free ranging together. Usually they stay apart

 

[HiEverybirdy]

I was told, and learnt for myself that a rooster with just on hen following him, is much less likely to look for more hens. One really needs tribes to see this.

I've been saying I have groups, since tribes seem like they ought to form organically, and our groups were formed by me.

Even so, we see what you describe. The roosters show almost no indication they want to woo hens from other roosters.

I initially thought the fenceline romances between groups were the beginnings of wooings. Currently, Stilton & Lorraine (a Merle's Girl), Stilton & Peck (a Dre's bae), and Andre & Carrots (a Stilton's Hen) spend many an hour dancing for and grooming each other through the fence.

But when they're on the same side of the fence, these couples all but ignore each other. A recent exception is Stilton has started to wing drop for Peck. Peck just steps out of the way.

Those halfhearted wing drops have nothing on the full-on dances and vocals Stilton performs for the hens he roosts with.

He's also never chased or hackle flared Peck. Here's a Stilty hackle flare for Miss Eula

On the same token, Andre rarely acknowledges Stilton's Hens except for an occasional wing drop.

Those 2 groups range together regularly. Sometimes they separate, and sometimes they mix it up.

Merle Hagbird, on the other wing, doesn't have the same manners. He's not above chasing any hen. It's more assault than wooing.

It's not uncommon for Stilton's hens to scream and run if they find themselves on the same side of the fence as Merle. He's also the only rooster here who still treads feathers off his hens' backs in the summer, which is frustrating.

Despite his rough edges, Merle's is the closest knit group. They do everything together.

They range less with the other groups, since the Marans hens are nearly as tough on hens as rooster Merle. They beef with everybirdy.

In fact, Merle's Girls might be more of a gang than a group

 

[HiEverybirdy]

Are we misreading an instinct to protect and defend as aggression?

Definitely.

Males of many species we've domesticated can fare poorly in the settings we force them into. Their coded responsibilities to protect territory, promote their genetics, etc. can definitely get in the way of human goals and cause chaos.

I think most humans forget, or ignore, or cannot perceive, that the goals of the animals we domesticate are extraordinarily different than human goals involving those animals.