Show off your Delawares! *PIC HEAVY*

[Lotsapaints]

Yes Serrin it is nice to have people helping you nicely. I cannot wait for my first hatch of Dellies if it's anywhere close to my first eggs from them wow....my breeder quality ones are getting close to lay I'm hoping for 6 pullets good enough to breed from I keep looking at them as they are really starting to chunk up sadly some of mine with good color are very base narrow but I'm using the ALBC's charts and tips for choosing my stock and off to improving. I know one thing they make good eating....

 

[jeremy]

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You can say the same thing about Bill Braden's stock. The birds that are growing out now that I hatched from his eggs are gorgeous and very to standard. I'm not trying to invalidate Janet's comment but obviously Bill has to know what he's talking, the proof is in his birds as well!

Ultimately yes the SOP may be subject to interpretation, that's human nature. That standard may vary from region to region, judge to judge, breeder to breeder, individual bird to individual bird. I will breed and I feel any responsible breeder should breed towards what the proposed SOP as it clearly states. At this point there is no mention of whether or not Dels should have a green sheen to any of their feathers, so I will cull out any birds that show that trait. Due to the fact that it is a recognizable sign of Colombian heritage.

Whether or not you (not you specifically Kathy, I'm using you as a general focus) think it's okay for Dels to have the sheen I guess is up to you and how you run your breeding program. However I feel that if they were suppose to show this color then the standard would call for it. Just like Stacy noted when she brought up the example of the Barnevelder standard, it clearly stated that it's expected to be in that breed. Why wouldn't it say the same for Dels if it were to be there?

 

[rancher hicks]

Unfortunately what concerns me with show is that it fall mainly to appearance. Delawares were once considered a broiler breed and should IMO not only look like a Delaware but "feel meaty" like a broiler. I intend to tag birds that have other traits as well as appearance. Right now I've got one that goes broody and a roo that dances. These are as important traits as any.

Cyn of the five roos that hatched from your eggs I've only noticed one that danced. I was surprised to say the least. Also the fact is some hens don't go broody til years 2 or 3. So I've got to keep the one hen of 7 that has gone broody and breed her.

It seems to me a sheen to the black is a personal preference and up to the judge to decide if your going to show. Whether the APA decides to include this description into the SOP book is yet to be seen if they find this to be a bone of contention among breeders and showers.

I personally dislike hens whose hackle "barring" is indestinquishable from a distance.

Sorry for butting in, but Delawares are my passion among poultry breeds.

Have a nice day folks.

Rancher

 

[speckledhen]

Jeremy, you are avoiding the interpretation issue entirely. What is medium? What is "moderately broad"? Where are the actual measurements to make the meaning clear? That should be black and white, but it is not. That's what interpretation means.

The Delawares heritage is Barred Rock, not Cuckoo Marans; they are not cuckoo patterned. Braden is wrong. Since you are so adamant about the Standard, please find the word "cuckoo" in that description. I consulted a genetics expert and he also says that due to their BR ancestry, they would have some green sheen in their tail feathers--it's in the genes. Hard to get around those.

No skin off my nose if you try to cull out green sheen from the black or not (good luck with that). Its just not important to me--I don't breed Delawares. We were trying to have a discussion, I thought. No need for anyone's nose to get out of joint about it.

As for me, I am not breeding Delawares or anything to a "standard" anymore anyway (a surface appearance standard, that is). That has completely lost its charm for me now after seeing some premier breeders who are getting lazy, believing their own press, charging exhorbitant amounts for eggs/chicks, but who have lost their edge in the breeding world as far as I can see from photographs of their stock--their product isn't as great as the $$$ they're charging for it; not naming names, but in the end you have the SOP. You cannot add to what it doesn't say or you end up writing your own standard. You can only "interpret" what you think it means and hope some judge agrees with you.

Tim, you aren't butting in at all. Isaac dances his heart out-maybe your boys will get better at it as they mature some more. He's also meaty enough to satisfy your desire for that part of the breed. There is more to "heritage" than appearance, yes. I completely agree with you on that one. I would be more into the vigor and health and overall deep bodied appearance than just whether the black is shiny or dull.

 

[jeremy]

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Really - that is my interpretation.

rancher hicks, I'm glad to have you chime in as well. I feel too that personality traits and characteristics should be just as much requirements for a breeding program as overall appearance. I witnessed my boy from Cynthia dance and mate one of my Australorp pullets for the first time this morning! For this reason and the fact that he's visibly eye appealing I'll hold onto him for my program.

Also Cyn, I don't think Bill was meaning Delawares have Cuckoo Marans in their background when he mentioned that they were cuckoo color (or pattern) in his email. I think he was stating that Dels have the cuckoo pattern that lacks the sheen as opposed to the BR pattern that has the sheen, which I have not seen in either breed though. I have emailed him back in response to that remark and am waiting on a reply, so don't quote me on my interpretation of his statement.

 

[speckledhen]

I know he wasn't saying they had CMs in their ancestry, but they are not cuckoo patterned. If they were, no green sheen would be present, but they are not. Here is what my genetics consultant, who is currently writing a genetics book, told me:

The standard calls for green sheen in self black birds and no sheen on the black bars of the Dominique. If the Dominique is cuckoo barred, then it should not have sheen. If I remember correctly, the barred rock standard does not call for green sheen so that may be a preference by the judges. I have a 1998 standard so if the standard has changed, I stand corrected. Your dels should have some sheen because they have barred rock in their ancestry.

Genetics determine it all, regardless of what someone says they want a bird to look like. I don't think sheen is something to breed for or against in this breed. It just is.​

 

[rancher hicks]

I have to admit that I only the one hen and one roo from the six that hatched. The boys were just to rough on the girls. 6 roos with less than 20 hens. It was a nightmare and then they started crowing. Some were clearly not usable. The roo I have has as close to five points as I could get. I have a fat hen that has five points so he'll get to see her. If I had more room I'd be hatching chicks with the incu now. I intend to start after Christmas by the grace of God.

Of course if any go broody and I can't break them, they'll be hatching Dels. I have a good imagination and I'll figure something out. LOL.

I've got plans for a "hoop coop" greenhouse combination.

My main concern for my Dels right now is size/type. I want to develop the fattest Dels I can with out polluting the line with something else. I've got to figure out how to weigh chickens to standard. Before or after butchering.

One really needs three set ups. One for egg birds and one for breeding birds and one for raising birds to see what needs to be culled or not.

And I've got to work up the courage to butcher my own birds if I'm to keep roos to size. How can I determine if a roos is to standard size if I dont' keep him long enough. Hens are easy to get rid of if they don't work out.

Plus this may be the last year for my older Del hens to breed. They may or may not be good layers at this point. They're at least two.

How many Dels can I keep in a 4x4x4 coop? I think I can figure out how to build one for about $100.00

Well take care

Rancher

 

[Serrin]

A question, if I may? How long ago was the original SOP for the Delawares written? Is it fairly new? Or is this something that was written in the 1800's? I ask this because the answer may have some bearing on the conversation here. Please try to follow me, as I'm not sure I'm going to be able to explain this one properly. I'm going to use examples from experiences DH and I have had on a subject fairly far removed from Chickens. But I'm sure you'll make the connection.

Our home is situated in a remote part of Spokane County in Washington State. There are "junk" piles everywhere out here, and sometimes we find the darnedest things buried there. Yes, we love to scrounge around in old rusty junk heaps!

The average age of some of these piles goes back to pre-statehood times [1881 in this case] as indicated by some of the patent dates on the pieces we find.

Some of the things we find, absolutely defy explanation as to purpose or how it functioned. But obviously, a hundred and thirty years ago, somebody knew what it was, how to use it and when it was time to throw it away because it was broken or obsolete. In our collections from these junk piles, we've found pieces interesting enough to us to warrant taking them to our local farm museum for identification and explanation. Once in a while, they are as mystified as we are.

As the curator of the farm museum said to us one day...[paraphrased] "So much of the old ways from the old days are lost to us now. They knew what they were doing with this stuff back then, but as machinery was improved, that which was not efficient was left by the wayside in favor of the more efficient or labor saving devices. Sometimes the only way we know how something was supposed to work or what it was for, is through old owners manuals that somebody's great great great grandparents had tucked away in a trunk in the attic. Any time this information surfaces, it's absolutely priceless to us."

So, how does all of that relate to chickens and breeding and the SOP? Well, if the original SOP for Delawares, just as an example, is something that was written a long time ago, it is possible that what was obvious to everyone at the time......so obvious that nobody thought it worth writing down..... has been lost in the dust of time. The green sheen may be just such an example. Perhaps back then, everyone thought: "Well of course there's going to be the green sheen. These birds were created from breeds X, Y and Z! What else would you expect?" Or the obverse may also be true.

Which ever the case may be, I have the distinct impression that it was of no major moment to those developing the breed at the time. If it had been, surely there would be some mention made of it in the original SOP?

..... Except for that whole "it's so obvious we don't need to state it" thing and the passage of time.

In which case, it's up to the breeders and showers, as Tim previously stated, to change it. Make a hew and a cry over something loudly enough, and the situation will likely be corrected in [hopefully] a reasonable period of time.

And such is my wish for my Delaware friends. That you all can have a definitive description as to the points of the breed standard, spelled out in black and while, with no ambiguity.

Boy! Jeremy, wouldn't it be a bummer if it turned out to be the opposite of what you're selecting for? That the green sheen is in fact a highly desirable trait?

.................................This from the woman who boasts nothing but mutts in her flock!

 

[jeremy]

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Genetics determine it all, regardless of what someone says they want a bird to look like. I don't think sheen is something to breed for or against in this breed. It just is.

"If I remember correctly, the barred rock standard does not call for green sheen so that may be a preference by the judges. "

"Your dels should have some sheen because they have barred rock in their ancestry."

Am I reading this wrong or do those 2 statements contradict one another? Because to me the first quote seems to say that BR should not have sheen at all and then the second quote says Dels get the sheen from BRs. How does that make any sense?

Who is this genetics consultant Cyn, what are their qualifications?

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Serrin, I would simply then rework my breeding program to move into the direction of the proposed standard. No biggie. My biggest point is that if we're all really for the preserving and taking care that these bird lasts for years to come, wouldn't we want to make sure that the lines we're using are the correct ones? Wouldn't we want to be selective in our breeding so that we don't continue to pass on genetics from birds with faults? To me it seems like folks judgments sometimes are clouded by bias when they really should step back and take a look at what they're working with, then ask themselves if by breeding the birds they're breeding are they moving in the right direction?

 

[joletabey]

Would it be worth contacting the Board of Directors of the APA since they approved the 2001 version of the SOP and see how they interpret it? I have addresses and emails and phone numbers of all of them from the front of the book- surely some of them would still be available? I would be willing to contact them -
If nothing else, it may make a difference in the next edition how they word things....?

I have to admit, the green sheen makes sense if BR's have it.

Also, the SOP has a disclaimer under the photo of the artist- Diane M. Jackey. The disclaimer says:

The color pictures in the Standard of Perfection are the artist's interpretation of the written description for each breed and variety portrayed. Their purpose is to give a general idea of each bird. DO NOT (their caps) take these portraits as examples of the perfect specimen. The written text is the description of the ideal bird.