Show off your Delawares! *PIC HEAVY*

[jeremy]

Quote:
I think contacting somebody from the APA to make a clear and concise judgment call on whether or not the sheen should be there is a great idea.

If I had the contacts, I already would have.

If whomever says that the sheen is okay then I would like an explanation as to why, and vice versa.

Here's some food for thought- say the green sheen IS okay because it's carried down through the genes of the Delaware ancestry. Here's the clencher though...

How do you distinguish the good green sheen (from BR or NHR parentage) from the bad green sheen that is the result of Colombian genetics? Is it even possible? Would you even want to risk breeding a bird that shows the sheen if you are unsure whether or not your bird carries Colombian genes, resulting in further pollution of the Delaware stock.

 

[speckledhen]

Yes, Barred Rocks have green sheen in the black on their feathers. They would be the only breed I had if I had to pick just one. No, it would not be Delawares.

Columbian Rocks have solid black hackles and solid black tail feathers. The sheen has nothing to do with Columbian and everything to do with the color black. Solid black tails as opposed to barred are a Columbian Rock trait. Sheen is on all self-black birds as far as I know. Some of it is purple, some is green, but it's there. Maybe it's possible to breed one without sheen, but you would be fighting a losing battle in my opinion if you are working with barred as opposed to cuckoo birds like Dominiques.

You know Tim Adkerson? Not many know more about genetics than Tim and I think most who know him would back me up on that.

And now, I'm bowing out of the discussion. Been a long, hot, miserable day. Carry on.

 

[jeremy]

Enough said, I agree.

I'm glad that this thread can handle genetics conversations(/debates

), I was sad to see the Marans thread be closed after so many pages because of squabbling.

Good job everyone!

 

[tnchickenut]

Wow. I don't even know who to address first.

First off, yes, pictures are renditions of what the artist thinks is right. HOWEVER, the SOP drawings should be compared to a suspect drawing by a police department, not the Mona Lisa. The artist is going off what the SOP says. Not what they think is pretty. It is a drawing of the perfect example... and you will not find that in photograph because it has never happened in any breed.

Secondly, no offence, but OF COURSE Janet would agree that the black with sheen should be there! Is Janet not "seriousbill" who you (Cyn, and subsequently most everyone else) got your birds from? I mean, that isn't exactly a suprise. "Hey Toyota, your exellorators stick and the cars are exellerating out of control" and Toyota says, "No they aren't. We built them right the first time." Sound familiar? I'm sorry to sound harsh about it, but one person... let alone the one who you got your stock from, should not be the final say in this debate.

Bill Braden says the opposite, and I happen to personally know a dear friend of his and thus the calibur of breeder we are talking. I'm telling you, they are serious about quality in their birds. The fact that Mr. Braden counters Janet's responce should keep us all still debating about out it. Short of George Ellis, I'm not taking any one person's word for it. I go by the SOP (a 1998 version, since time and trends was brought up) and like I keep saying... it says nothing about a sheen.

Now, Cyn, you keep refering to a "dull" black. I never read anyone bring up a dull black... just a grey "white". I have a polish that is a deep blue and looks "dull black" and I don't believe that is the black Jeremy was refering too. It is clearly not black... almost looks like black that had baby powder thrown on it. I don't think that is what he is saying. You can have a dark black without a sheen. That does not make it blue.


Long and short of it is this: The SOP has pages of what every little feather should look like if you plucked it, it has great detailed descriptions and even pictures of what the perfect example would be. It is quite literally your chicken breeding bible. And for the record, again, it says nothing about a lustrous greenish black being desirable in either the Delaware or the Barred Rock (since we are bringing them into it)... matter of fact it clearly states "short of positive black" and Cyn, by your own admission... you stated that true black has a sheen. I'm sitting with the SOP in my lap and it says "short of positive black" so somebody... please... tell me how you get "lustrous green sheen" out of that?!?!

 

[rancher hicks]

Well I have to say I never considered a "green sheen" in my Delawares, nor have I noticed any.
As of this writing I have three lines. 1. From an unknown in WNY, 2. two hens from Ideal hatchery, not to be bred into my line, and 3. Cynthias line, whereever they came from.
Also as of this writing it's not something I'll be breeding for or concerned with.

I haven't seen anyone on here showing pictures of Delawares with ribbons, nor mention of them at shows. I dont' know if I'll get to go to the State Fair to see if there are any being shown there. As far as I've read in the book from the ALBC there is only one listed breeder of Delawares in NY state. You can be sure if there is a serious breeder at the fair and I find them I'll stick to them like white on rice, til I get the answers to my questions.

Cyn, as queen of England would say, Be calm and carry on.

Rancher

 

[speckledhen]

Wow, indeed. Sigh. I was trying my best not to say it, but two people keep bringing him up--I've seen Braden Dels on his website and he must post pictures of his culls because I was not impressed at all. I expected much more. I said as much months ago to a couple folks.

We were talking standards, not what we think is "pretty". If I went with "pretty", it would be a different breed.


I really hate to see this thread become nasty and go the way of the Orp and Marans threads, but I see it coming. This has ceased to be a discussion and has become a browbeating session. No one learns that way. Not sure why the contentious attitude here, but it wasn't coming from me, and when that surfaces, I bow out. So talk amongst yourselves and you decide what you want to believe and I'll have another moderator check in on it.

 

[HaikuHeritageFarm]

From an outsider's perspective (as in, new to Dels) let me say this:

I know that in both canine and rabbit SOPs, wording is different in each breed even on points that that should be the same simply because DIFFERENT PEOPLE WROTE THEM. Differences in wording often comes down to semantics, and the SOP IS subject to not only the judge's interpretation, but to yours as well. An SOP is usually the the cumulative result of a group effort, and often has undergone revisions and changes.

I know in dogs, people keep track of which judges like their dogs and which do not so that they can be sure to not waste their money showing to a judge that likes a different type. Same with my rabbits.

And as for having actual pictures of the animals instead of illustrations, I think that's not necessarily ideal. Sure, having some for reference would be fine. But remember that there is, and has never been, a "perfect" specimen, no matter the species or breed we're talking about. I believe the point of the illustration is to be able to create that imaginary "perfect specimen" that breeders are supposed to strive for.

Instead of nit-picking the specifics of color on the Delaware SOP vs. any other breed, is there no general resource to look at that has a description of different colors?

When I think about it, no healthy black bird I have ever seen did not have a colored sheen of one hue or another. A dull-black, to me, either denotes poor health or a dilute factor.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Regardless of iridescent sheen, I'm a long way from the ideal bird so I'll worry about that last. Seems like there are lots more important things!

 

[Serrin]

Quote:
Wow! I guess I jinxed the whole works, huh?

Just about the time I made a comment on how wonderful it was to see people engaged in lively and intelligent debate, the wheels came flying off of the wagon. I surely hope this thread doesn't come to an end on account of this. I've really enjoyed my short time on this one. Y'all are a bit like a family ya know? I hope the egos won't get in the way of being able to see that.

Hold that door Cyn, I'm right behind ya.

 

[Hillbilly Hen]

I need a bit of advice please from those that breed dels. Do you keep more than one roo in case something were to happen to the main roo? I have Fergus and three del girls [Kenna, Annabelle, and Fionia]. They are in with 11 assorted breeds of girls and a welsummer cockeral. Fergus and the welsummer cockeral have an understanding. I have another del cockeral [ Finn] that is about a month or so younger than Fergus. I have been trying to slowly introduce him in with Fergus and the gang. Mostly they have been out free ranging at the same time but Fergus has been trying to whip the tar out of Finn. So I have been debating if it is a good idea to keep the extra del cockeral. I have plans to move the welsummer cockeral into the old coop with the welsummer girls later.

 

[tnchickenut]

Rancher... valid point about not seeing any pictures with ribbons on here. I know I fully intend on trying to get one of my boys into show, but honestly... with a full time - zero tollerance on tardiness day job... I can't guarentee it. If I do... I will surely... even if I do badly, share afterwards. BTW, that boy in question I call "Big Boy" and he has no sheen and his black is black.. not faded.

Jeremy, a good way to tell without using the sheen as a indicator of Columbian influence is... Columbian rocks call for a beak that is "yellow with a dark stripe down the upper mandible" while Delaware's beaks should be "reddish horn" on both males and females. I have tried stock from a number of people who have "good stock" when you ask around, but when I hatched... I got yellow beaks with dark stripes down the top of their beak. Guess what... hens are in the "eatting egg" flock and boys went up for sale. That's not to say that when starting out breeding I didn't use them... you kinda have to... you work with the best you have and keep improving. That's the secret... you don't get a flock and say, "They are perfect. No one else's stock could possibly improve them." Do you realize how many Dels I have bought and hatched from a number of sources just this year!??! Yes, good stock is very hard to find... but I keep trying because it is what you must do. I know my birds aren't perfect... and I acknowledge their faults and work to improve them. I don't deny they are there and keep mating them.

I agree with you, Jeremy, on that we should be working to get the breed back to what it was intended. It is a heritage breed that deserves to be preserved. If that means starting all over, that is what I'm going to do. Assuming I die from old age, I have plenty of time to work on it and I don't intend on stopping (or slowing down).

Personally, I don't give a rat's behind about trends who does what at shows. I want a rooster who looks like "Superman" and I want Dels that look like I took them out of George Ellis' coops. Like I said, I'm not going to stop trying to find them and work towards it myself in the meantime. The problem with blue ribbons at this and that show is that #1 there isn't a whole lot of Dels to go against. #2 there *could be* a lack of understanding on the judges part of the breed and #3 (as obvious by this whole discussion) there is a huge amount of miscommunication and "carbon copying" being done. What I mean by that is... you get birds, you don't work to improve them by adding new blood (and thus new features), you just take what your breeder says as gospel and inline breed them.

I'm not trying to "ruffle up feathers" (

) I'm just saying how I feel about the whole situation with the whole "chicken boom". I have no problem with people getting chickens for eggs and having a rooster and selling hatching eggs... I just see a HUGE difference between the serious lifelong breeder and the backyard pet owner/hobbiest. I think it's very important to note that the oldest generation (the ones who have the oldest lines of Dels and probrably the most pure) are not computer savvy. It's also important to note that most serious breeders/show ring types do not have time to be online even if they know and understand it.

I am a member of the ALBC and (without getting up and uncomfortable again to verify) there are very few Del breeders in the directory. I think it was 5-10 or so. Most or all are not online. You can check PP magazine over and no Del breeders (trust me I check everytime my copy comes in the mail). I have seen a few pairs offered for pickup only but always in PA and NY, so I couldn't get them

However... I have got a friend in NY who has got me the hook up for some of these illusive Dels that are not online. I just hope I'm not let down with yellow beaks with dark stripes down the top again. You just don't know until you try, though.

I'm starting to ramble because it's late, but my point is... not every breeder is online. Some of the very best don't even own computers. They may have others run a simple site as a point of contact for them (like Braden), but if you think about it... if you are seriously breeding... you should have hundereds of birds. The more chicks feather out, the more you have to chose from and the better the "chosen ones" can be. The more birds you have, the less time you have. Incase you never noticed... I'm always online late. I don't get to stop working until 9pm or even 10 sometimes and I am not as big as others. I have 200 or so birds at any given time from day olds up. Some are pets, some are breeding stock. I keep all my breeders until they reach 5 or 6 months of age so I can see what they are becomming. (I think I'm getting back to rambling)

Look, I'm a very private person. That is one reason I don't comment alot on here. I like BYC but I take it for what it is... it should not be used as a sole sorce for stock. There are old timers out there with probrably the best stock there is available and they don't even own computers. Think about it. If Dels came about to the APA in the 40's and there is a 80 year old who has been breeding them since he was in his younger days... he has the better stock... assuming he hasn't washed them out with Columbian himself.

Well, I'm glad we are all talking about it. Delawares have been one of those breeds who have became something different with hatcheries picking them up a diluting them with Columbian. I agree with Jeremy completely that to truely care and breed for prosperity of Delawares means working that Columbian out. And I'm sorry, but I stand by the true feeling that the sheen comes from the Columbian influence until I am PROVEN (not told) different. I'm going now to try to find someone (or some people) to get some answers on this. After reading the BR description in the SOP (because of this debate) I am convinced that the sheen shouldn't be there in them either. Some of you talk about "judges" having all the answers. Let me tell you , folks. I met one of these judges the other day... he Called my Light Sussex pair Light Brahmas ... ok. Brahmas have feathered feet... so even at a quick glance... some judge. So exuse me when it's mentioned to ask a judge this and that, that I just think it's a waste of time. They know their favorite breeds by heart and the rest they kinda know or not. It's human nature. They pick blue ribbons for breeds they visually like... once again, human nature. So going by judges and blue ribbons (unless it's a Master Exhibitor or Mastor Breeder who has won enough against enough of the same breed to earn the title) isn't exactly a fool-proof way of finding "the truth".

Now, I have to get up at 4am and go to work so that my chickens will be guarenteed feed in their feeders. I truely live for them.... and it's exausting.