Show off your Delawares! *PIC HEAVY*

[jeremy]

Quote:
It's more important than just finding out the correct or incorrect color of tail feathers, it's more than that. It's about being a responsible breeder who does everything in his or her power to strengthen, promote, purify and preserve the breed to it's fullest degree. Isn't that, in essence, what we're striving for with these birds, perfection? (SOP I mean.)

As far as the SOP goes, right now the expectation is clearly defined, whether or not that needs to be brought up for revision is up to the author's who wrote the book. You can't really bend rules to meet your flocks specific needs.

Quote:
Beth, I can see how males with darker tails might help the females in your breeding program, but at what cost? Will all of the resulting cockerels have unclear barring because of it? As Cynthia has stated before this breed is difficult because of the differences between the males and females. I think it might take time and effort to find good examples of both to then breed together to select the best qualities, but isn't that what breeding is all about? Selecting for the good and culling the bad.

 

[speckledhen]

I will certainly bow to whatever Janet has to say on this subject. I think many descriptions that mention green sheen may be as opposed to purple sheen, which I have seen written up as undesirable. Beth, "dull black" is what some call dark blue, so it isn't truly black, from what I've read.

Yes, you really need two lines to produce the best males and females. Males with tails dark like Isaac's will usually produce daughters with better tail black. Females who have barred tail feathers till they molt them out should produce males with the better, more distinct tail barring. At least, that's my understanding.

As Amy said, the SOP is open to interpretation, just as the artist's renderings are interpretations of that standard. I'd rather see actual photographs of show quality Delawares (and all breeds) in the SOP so we could better judge, but they are rare, as a poultry judge told me in a PM. A breeder in Alabama PM'd me to tell me how much better my Delawares were than the ones at the APA show he attended with his birds (he doesn't breed Dels). I do not take credit for that, personally. They were all products of seriousbill's years and years of excellent breeding practices.

If anyone has a picture of a truly show quality Delaware, I'd love to see it. I won't show mine due to the possibility of introducing disease into my flock.

 

[jeremy]

Quote:
I can't agree with that. If the SOP is open to interpretation, why does it exist at all? If that were truly the case than any breeder could breed towards whatever standard they preferred and then call their birds perfect.

ETA: I think I'll contact Bill Braden, I was very pleased with his stock and see what he has to say about the barring vs. dull barring/green sheen tail feathers in roosters.

 

[speckledhen]

Jeremy, judges interpret it all the time. Two judges won't pick the same winner in a show. After all, can you tell me exactly how many inches an earlobe should be? The SOP says "medium" (I think--will have to recheck that) What is medium? That is what I mean when I say open to interpretation.

When you ask Bill, be sure he understands you mean sheen in the black part of the barring, not a solid black tail.

 

[speckledhen]

Janet, bless her heart, answered my PM even though she was pressed for time and I would take her explanation to the bank any day on this breed.

Hi Cyn,

I'm just on my way out but will answer quickly. My understanding is much like your own; any actual black has green sheen. If it does not, then there's most likely a diluting factor at work, and that would give a "bluer" or more washed-out looking black, which is obviously not desirable. The few Delaware show chickens I have seen (at shows) had green sheen in the tail. What you want is the best delineation possible between the black and white in your Del roo's tail, and that means the black must be crisp. A crisp black will carry a sheen. This is not surprising from a historical standpoint either, considering that the Delaware's barring is derived from the Barred Rock, which also has a green sheen in the barring in the best show specimens.​

 

[jeremy]

From Bill Braden,

Hi Jeremy,



Yes I remember you and I am happy to hear that you are enjoying your Delaware’s.



In answer to your question, the black in Delaware’s is a cuckoo color and shouldn’t have a green sheen.



Its good to hear from you, Bill



Visit our Web Page WWW.Landoftobe.com PO box 182 Salina, OK 74365 Psalm 42:11

-----Original Message-----
From: jeremy spratlen [mailto:[email protected]]
Sent: Sunday, August 08, 2010 3:15 PM
To: bill braden
Subject: Delaware chat



Bill,

I don't know if you remember but I contacted you and bought a dozen Delawares from you a couple months back. The resulting chicks are all growing and thriving and I'm very happy with them.

I wanted to know if you'd lend a bit of your expertise to some questions about Delawares that have rose on a forum that I'm a part of. I don't know if you're familiar with BackyardChickens.com but they have a wonderful online forum where thousands of members can discuss their birds.

Anyways, some conversation has came up as to whether or not Delaware males should have a green sheen in their tail feathers. Predominantly on the black parts of their barring. To the best of my knowledge I don't think they should, others are commenting that they should. What do you think? Here's the link to the page of where the conversation took place.

https://www.backyardchickens.com/forum/viewtopic.php?id=249618&p=731

The conversation starts with post number 7303, about halfway down the page and then is carried out throughout the following pages.

Any info you would have would be greatly appreciated. It's not called for in the standard so I was just wondering.

Thanks for your time,

Jeremy Spratlen​

 

[speckledhen]

There you have it, two interpretations. And the fact that the standard is completely silent on it would say to me that it doesn't consider it a fault. You can't have crisp black and have it dull at the same time. How is that even possible?

ETA: never heard anyone call Cuckoo a color. It isn't a color at all, it's a pattern. And, Delawares are not cuckoo. They are barred. Hard to believe he said such a thing, really. Makes me wonder.


To clarify, I did not say they should have green sheen. I said they do and that is isn't a fault. He is adding to the standard where the standard is silent, thereby, making his own interpretation of it.

 

[Serrin]

I love this! Spirited and intellectually stimulating debate conducted in a respectful and polite manner! Y'all are to be applauded and commended!

I've been to a lot of other sites, where such impassioned debate is down right impossible. Their egos get in the way, the monstrous sides of personalities come flying out of the closet, and the next thing you know, there's an all out war going where once there was discussion.

Keep up this great discussion folks, in the manner in which you're doing, and I'll happily stick around to watch.

This is FUN!!! Having said that, does anyone mind the two cents worth being tossed in from time to time, from someone who has absolutely no stake in the outcome? I simply admire and lust after these beautiful creatures. It is those of you who breed who have a vested interest after all.

 

[speckledhen]

You're welcome to add to the discussion, Amy, of course.

I want to make more clear this "open to interpretation" statement. All standards (not just the SOP) are open to interpretation if they are not specific. The words "medium", "moderately broad", "slightly elongated", etc, are all interpreted differently by different people. A true standard would say 'between 6-7 inches in length" or "Elongated, but no more than two inches in length", "no less than 3 inches and no wider than 4 inches". Those are not open to interpretation, but very specific.

 

[kathyinmo]

As well as the "artist's rendition," of the SOP ..... horrible as they are currently. All are open to interpretation. A judge commented that he is hopeful the next edition has a new artist.

Personally, I would bank on Janet's word. Her stock shows her knowledge and skill. She knows what she is doing, and it shows in her work (her birds). That is my opinion.