Spiral Line Breeding and Genetics

[EggSighted4Life]

Hi peeps!

After several years of working with many breeds and learning lot's along the way I need some solid advice on how to best diversify my genetics AND get the varieties I desire. I have some understanding but not enough! I also have some idea of what I need to do but as an obsessive over thinker, having it spelled out by someone with experience sure could be helpful in saving some of my brain power.

I'm working with bantam Ameraucana. I currently have Wheaten (6F and 8M) and Lavender (1F, 4M).

However, focusing on Lavender... my true goal, the issue I am faced with is having 4 cockerels and only 1 pullet... after spending several years and more than $600 to get the few I have... I'm tired of looking and hoping for what has yet to materialize. Hopefully I will be able to just work on my own closed flock lines!

So I was planning to start an intensive program to get through as many generations as I can as quickly as possible. Using all 4 stags to create not less than 4 lines with the Lav lady. Can you tell me what I will get if I breed my Lav stags over Wheaten ladies? Will this give me black splits or something else? Bred back to Lav... will I then get some Lav and some black, and will they be likely to have excess leakage?

One last question... How do I get chocolate?

Please be just as detailed as you can as I WILL take the time to process it all the way through my brain. Or if you know someone else with a better understanding either of my varieties in question or spiral line breeding then please tag them. Thank you in advance to those willing to share their time and knowledge! When possible links are appreciated. Suggestions also welcome.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

Hi, I can't help with what colors you'll get or how to get chocolate. I have enough trouble trying to get all black birds without too much white or the occasional brown.
Do you know if your 4 lavender males are unrelated? If they are full brothers, it won't help to swap them with the hen. Doing so will eat up a lot of time while waiting to clear out the previous male's sperm and not contribute to genetic diversity.
I found an NPIP breeder in Missouri that raises bantam chocolate Ameraucanas.
It is the first breeder on page 49 in the following link.
https://agriculture.mo.gov/animals/pdf/poultry_yearbook.pdf

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Do you know if your 4 lavender males are unrelated? If they are full brothers, it won't help to swap them with the hen. Doing so will eat up a lot of time while waiting to clear out the previous male's sperm and not contribute to genetic diversity.

I'm not sure how fully related they are, but definitely so.

I THOUGHT it might help with the diversity since they are not genetically exactly the same. But yes, time consumption is an issue for me. And I greatly appreciate your thoughts on the subject!

I already sent an email to the chocolate NPIP breeder. Thanks for that! It's amazing how different the searches turn up depending on what word you use sometimes.

@nicalandia might you share?

 

[Cyprus]

Sad news is that you will never get back to producing pure lavs by crossing colors. You'll get blacks with leakage and breeding back to lav will throw lav with leakage. It's not worth it.

I know a lady in Raleigh, NC who will be selling bantam lav Ameraucanas next year.

 

[Amer]

Would it be possible to breed the Bantam Lav. males over the LF Lav. hen's, and then keep the resulting pullet's to breed back to the Bantam Lav. males to increase your genetic diversity? That way you wouldn't loose your color.

Trust me... it's no fun trying to fix oversized bantams. Doing that will probably just wreck the diversity all over again.

Keeping a healthy gene pool should solve problems, not cause more of them.

Breeders of bantam Buckeyes all over have been trying to reduce them by about ten ounces and it just isn't happening because of a tiny gene pool. Improving other traits that need improvement always causes size to be pushed back.
I'm just finding this out this year.

 

[The Moonshiner]

If you want to put the time and effort in you can cross any patterns together then breed back to the originals.
It all depends on the patterns how hard it will be.
There's many that aren't nothing to do. Black Xs barred, black Xs lavender, silver duckwing Xs gold duckwing etc. etc.
Complicated patterns provide more of a challenge. For example buff crossed with other patterns can be a longer road.
It is far from impossible to do. You just need to know the genes involved and sometimes test breedings are needed to follow the recessive genes.

 

[ChickenCanoe]

I've been in the Missouri Poultry Yearbook a long time and it was how I found another person here with Black Penedesencas but he no longer gets tested for NPIP.
He was primarily a LaFleche breeder.
I was amazed at the number of poultry breeds and varieties that small holders have here, in addition to the several hatcheries that show up in the yearbook.
Hopefully one or more males aren't full brothers to your female.

 

[Amer]

With my bantam Buckeyes, I also fear that they may propagate the same genes over and over if continually bred together, not improving the line, which is why I am interested in using these same methods. "Using all 4 stags to create not less than 4 lines with the Lav lady." Very good! That is a lot of diversity! Continue to breed each of the stags with each of the hens! You will maintain great diversity!
Can you tell me what I will get if I breed my Lav stags over Wheaten ladies? Will this give me black splits or something else?
Yep. Not worth it.
Bred back to Lav... will I then get some Lav and some black, and will they be likely to have excess leakage?
Yes my wheaten Ameraucana crossed over a Dominique produced a hen whose feathers looked like gold lacing around black because she had so much leakage. Wheaten has the most eumelanin (gold) out of every chicken.
L/lxl does make lavender, yes.
One last question... How do I get chocolate?

You must use a chocolate bird first. -you probably already know that and meant breeders.

 

[Cyprus]

Trust me... it's no fun trying to fix oversized bantams. Doing that will probably just wreck the diversity all over again.

Keeping a healthy gene pool should solve problems, not cause more of them.

Breeders of bantam Buckeyes all over have been trying to reduce them by about ten ounces and it just isn't happening because of a tiny gene pool. Improving other traits that need improvement always causes size to be pushed back.
I'm just finding this out this year.

Unfortunately, you are right.

 

[nicalandia]

So that is why I cringe when I hear about people crossing varieties expecting to get something that is repeatable.

I agree, but just pointing out that with the knowledge we have about the genetics inheritance of the genes required for most of the known patterns. Saying it´s not possible or impossible is really misleading.