The Welsummer Thread!!!!
- Thread starter pinkchick
- Start date
I have had Wellies for a couple of years but never what I would consider purebreds. So I've been doing research and it seems that "the" breeders include Lowell Barber, Channing
Hall, Calicowoods/Harry Shaw, and Bjorn Netland.
I guess my questions is can anyone describe the type of birds I would expect from each strain?
Thanks!
Hall, Calicowoods/Harry Shaw, and Bjorn Netland.
I guess my questions is can anyone describe the type of birds I would expect from each strain?
Thanks!
Quote:
Jan
That is a very good question that all of us had when we started on Welsummers. I honestly do not know for SURE if they bred them for their own distiction of the breed like certain colors or certain body build.
From what I have seen in the Barber birds, they look a bit "leaner" in their conformation.
Calicowoods, I have only one but I have the BEST hen out of the group and they do lay consisently more often than my other Wellie, the Channing/Hall lines. Estes have the Calicowoods stock and it has been five years since Harry Shaw died and the quality in the last three years have suffered. I'm seeing more lighter colored legs than yellow or yellow corn legs on them. Also, once in a great while, you do get white feathers in them in today's stock from Estes Hatchery. Something tells me they have not culled HARD to weed out those traits. Noticed they are more "leaner" in conformation as well.
Bjorn Netland, I have no idea. Never seen any and I can not tell you the difference yet.
Channing...I never saw any pure channing lines but one can guess.
Hall, again, same as Channing, never saw any but I can say to combine the two, Channing/Hall lines, by far is the better one I've seen so far. They are a bit stocker, more square in type, almost RIR in conformation with some upright position of the chest/breast area. Color is consisent but be careful, white feathers do pop up now and then, best to either send them to assorted egg laying flock only OR cull them out (butcher them). We have NO idea which lines are responsible but nearly ALL Wellies would have that trait. That is my experience with them. I like this line so far and will continue to use Nate Vanwey lines which he did have Channing/Hall lines in his flock.
I can not tell you which lays the darkest terra cotta but one must be very careful not getting too dark. I had a Wellie hen that was pure Calicowoods/Barber lines that laid a very dark terra cotta egg that looks of RED terra cotta. Lovely but her disposition was nasty, so I culled her out and her egg color was not what I wanted, too red, almost like Barnvelder egg color. If she was crossed with Welsummer roo, maybe it will tone down the redness into the true terra cotta color.
We all know that we will be seeing some progress going on with the breeders today, marking their own trademark. For example, Royce is working on his own strain by getting more "bronze" in the neck and tail feathers of his roosters, more "richer" brown than the traditional gold. If anyone get some of his stock a few years down the road, we can say that is a "Royce" bird because of the trademark color of his stock.
I personally like the "stockier" kind of Welsummers, a bit heavier than the leaner looks of Barber birds.
Some breeders are also working on the size of the combs and wattles, that would be another one in the works. As for me, I think the Barber birds have HUGE combs and wattles, a major problem with folks living in the frozen zones. I like the smaller combs and smaller wattles.
Some are working on the black penciling and shaft feathers, not white but grey. If breeders have something in mind in what they want to produce without going too far off from the SOP, it can be done and we shall see some distiction between the Welsummers, hopefully subtle markings, nothing abstract.
Hope this information helps!
Jan
That is a very good question that all of us had when we started on Welsummers. I honestly do not know for SURE if they bred them for their own distiction of the breed like certain colors or certain body build.
From what I have seen in the Barber birds, they look a bit "leaner" in their conformation.
Calicowoods, I have only one but I have the BEST hen out of the group and they do lay consisently more often than my other Wellie, the Channing/Hall lines. Estes have the Calicowoods stock and it has been five years since Harry Shaw died and the quality in the last three years have suffered. I'm seeing more lighter colored legs than yellow or yellow corn legs on them. Also, once in a great while, you do get white feathers in them in today's stock from Estes Hatchery. Something tells me they have not culled HARD to weed out those traits. Noticed they are more "leaner" in conformation as well.
Bjorn Netland, I have no idea. Never seen any and I can not tell you the difference yet.
Channing...I never saw any pure channing lines but one can guess.
Hall, again, same as Channing, never saw any but I can say to combine the two, Channing/Hall lines, by far is the better one I've seen so far. They are a bit stocker, more square in type, almost RIR in conformation with some upright position of the chest/breast area. Color is consisent but be careful, white feathers do pop up now and then, best to either send them to assorted egg laying flock only OR cull them out (butcher them). We have NO idea which lines are responsible but nearly ALL Wellies would have that trait. That is my experience with them. I like this line so far and will continue to use Nate Vanwey lines which he did have Channing/Hall lines in his flock.
I can not tell you which lays the darkest terra cotta but one must be very careful not getting too dark. I had a Wellie hen that was pure Calicowoods/Barber lines that laid a very dark terra cotta egg that looks of RED terra cotta. Lovely but her disposition was nasty, so I culled her out and her egg color was not what I wanted, too red, almost like Barnvelder egg color. If she was crossed with Welsummer roo, maybe it will tone down the redness into the true terra cotta color.
We all know that we will be seeing some progress going on with the breeders today, marking their own trademark. For example, Royce is working on his own strain by getting more "bronze" in the neck and tail feathers of his roosters, more "richer" brown than the traditional gold. If anyone get some of his stock a few years down the road, we can say that is a "Royce" bird because of the trademark color of his stock.
I personally like the "stockier" kind of Welsummers, a bit heavier than the leaner looks of Barber birds.
Some breeders are also working on the size of the combs and wattles, that would be another one in the works. As for me, I think the Barber birds have HUGE combs and wattles, a major problem with folks living in the frozen zones. I like the smaller combs and smaller wattles.
Some are working on the black penciling and shaft feathers, not white but grey. If breeders have something in mind in what they want to produce without going too far off from the SOP, it can be done and we shall see some distiction between the Welsummers, hopefully subtle markings, nothing abstract.
Hope this information helps!
- Dec 10, 2011
- 20
- 0
- 80
Thanks to Jan for asking that question, and thanks for the response. As a newcomer, I don't have that broad perspective of what is going on with development of the breed.
Quote:
Jan
That is a very good question that all of us had when we started on Welsummers. I honestly do not know for SURE if they bred them for their own distiction of the breed like certain colors or certain body build.
From what I have seen in the Barber birds, they look a bit "leaner" in their conformation.
Calicowoods, I have only one but I have the BEST hen out of the group and they do lay consisently more often than my other Wellie, the Channing/Hall lines. Estes have the Calicowoods stock and it has been five years since Harry Shaw died and the quality in the last three years have suffered. I'm seeing more lighter colored legs than yellow or yellow corn legs on them. Also, once in a great while, you do get white feathers in them in today's stock from Estes Hatchery. Something tells me they have not culled HARD to weed out those traits. Noticed they are more "leaner" in conformation as well.
Bjorn Netland, I have no idea. Never seen any and I can not tell you the difference yet.
Channing...I never saw any pure channing lines but one can guess.
Hall, again, same as Channing, never saw any but I can say to combine the two, Channing/Hall lines, by far is the better one I've seen so far. They are a bit stocker, more square in type, almost RIR in conformation with some upright position of the chest/breast area. Color is consisent but be careful, white feathers do pop up now and then, best to either send them to assorted egg laying flock only OR cull them out (butcher them). We have NO idea which lines are responsible but nearly ALL Wellies would have that trait. That is my experience with them. I like this line so far and will continue to use Nate Vanwey lines which he did have Channing/Hall lines in his flock.
I can not tell you which lays the darkest terra cotta but one must be very careful not getting too dark. I had a Wellie hen that was pure Calicowoods/Barber lines that laid a very dark terra cotta egg that looks of RED terra cotta. Lovely but her disposition was nasty, so I culled her out and her egg color was not what I wanted, too red, almost like Barnvelder egg color. If she was crossed with Welsummer roo, maybe it will tone down the redness into the true terra cotta color.
We all know that we will be seeing some progress going on with the breeders today, marking their own trademark. For example, Royce is working on his own strain by getting more "bronze" in the neck and tail feathers of his roosters, more "richer" brown than the traditional gold. If anyone get some of his stock a few years down the road, we can say that is a "Royce" bird because of the trademark color of his stock.
I personally like the "stockier" kind of Welsummers, a bit heavier than the leaner looks of Barber birds.
Some breeders are also working on the size of the combs and wattles, that would be another one in the works. As for me, I think the Barber birds have HUGE combs and wattles, a major problem with folks living in the frozen zones. I like the smaller combs and smaller wattles.
Some are working on the black penciling and shaft feathers, not white but grey. If breeders have something in mind in what they want to produce without going too far off from the SOP, it can be done and we shall see some distiction between the Welsummers, hopefully subtle markings, nothing abstract.
Hope this information helps!
Jan, I suggest going back a week or two thru this thread and you will see a post I made that talked in detail regarding "lines" and "strains". I wish BYC had a better way of searching so that it would take you right to the specific post one is looking for instead of just the thread. Especially sincer there is over 600 pages in this thread now! I don't have enough time to go into it all again right now and I think it will help you if you find it. Suffice it for now to say that one needs to remember there were only FIVE original breeders to get the Welsummers approved and of those five at least two of them were from the same breeder. There is still some doubt as to one of those five breeders because not much is known about him at all. Also, I know nothing at all about Channing but I can tell you that he was NOT one of the original five breeders. I know John Hall whom I assume is the reference being made and while he has some very nice birds and eggs, I know he was NOT one of the original five breeders. He told me once where he got his Wellies from but I can't remember now and don't have time to go look for it.
Robin, if you have any pics of that egg which was "too red, almost like Barnvelder egg color", I'd like to see it. To tell the truth, I've never seen a Barnevelder egg that came anywhere's close to being red. Heck, half the time the Barnie eggs have a hard time coming close to being brown.
Also, while I am working on moving the hackle color of my females more toward the copper side of the Standard, I definitely am NOT trying to add any copper (or bronze) to the tailfeathers of either the males or females. The tail color for males should be a solid, lustrous greenish-black. I am also pretty happy with the hackles on my males as well. The color is pretty good and they're nice and clean with no stippling or shafting. Having said that, let me be clear - the "trademark" of my stock will obviously have some nuances that are different than others BUT they will ALL be WITHIN the SOP. I believe you may have gotten confused with what I'm doing to the females hackle color. So I wanted to set the record straight in order to prevent any confusion for others who may read that.
And since you mentioned combs and wattles, I will also say that I keep an eye on that as well. I have seen some Welsummers that I believe do not have the proper size of either. The SOP calls for a "Medium-sized" comb and wattles. Now obviously there is some room for differences as to what is considered "Medium" but I have seen some combs and wattles which one would have a hard time arguing that they are not in the Large category. Some may recall there was quite a discussion on this some months back in regards to a particular individuals birds. Personally, I prefer to be on the smaller size of "medium" with the wattles and right around the middle of the spectrum with combs.
On a completely different side note and perhaps a total oddity, I'll mention another thing I'm going to be trying to perpetuate and it has nothing to do with the SOP. I have a couple of pullets and hens that have a very strange gait to them when they run. It almost appears as though they are skipping. I know this must be genetic because it has been passed down to offspring from their mothers. I think it is the funniest things I've ever seen to watch them when they run so I plan to perpetuate that in my females. Maybe that will be my "trademark"! The skipping Welsummers!
God Bless,
Jan
That is a very good question that all of us had when we started on Welsummers. I honestly do not know for SURE if they bred them for their own distiction of the breed like certain colors or certain body build.
From what I have seen in the Barber birds, they look a bit "leaner" in their conformation.
Calicowoods, I have only one but I have the BEST hen out of the group and they do lay consisently more often than my other Wellie, the Channing/Hall lines. Estes have the Calicowoods stock and it has been five years since Harry Shaw died and the quality in the last three years have suffered. I'm seeing more lighter colored legs than yellow or yellow corn legs on them. Also, once in a great while, you do get white feathers in them in today's stock from Estes Hatchery. Something tells me they have not culled HARD to weed out those traits. Noticed they are more "leaner" in conformation as well.
Bjorn Netland, I have no idea. Never seen any and I can not tell you the difference yet.
Channing...I never saw any pure channing lines but one can guess.
Hall, again, same as Channing, never saw any but I can say to combine the two, Channing/Hall lines, by far is the better one I've seen so far. They are a bit stocker, more square in type, almost RIR in conformation with some upright position of the chest/breast area. Color is consisent but be careful, white feathers do pop up now and then, best to either send them to assorted egg laying flock only OR cull them out (butcher them). We have NO idea which lines are responsible but nearly ALL Wellies would have that trait. That is my experience with them. I like this line so far and will continue to use Nate Vanwey lines which he did have Channing/Hall lines in his flock.
I can not tell you which lays the darkest terra cotta but one must be very careful not getting too dark. I had a Wellie hen that was pure Calicowoods/Barber lines that laid a very dark terra cotta egg that looks of RED terra cotta. Lovely but her disposition was nasty, so I culled her out and her egg color was not what I wanted, too red, almost like Barnvelder egg color. If she was crossed with Welsummer roo, maybe it will tone down the redness into the true terra cotta color.
We all know that we will be seeing some progress going on with the breeders today, marking their own trademark. For example, Royce is working on his own strain by getting more "bronze" in the neck and tail feathers of his roosters, more "richer" brown than the traditional gold. If anyone get some of his stock a few years down the road, we can say that is a "Royce" bird because of the trademark color of his stock.
I personally like the "stockier" kind of Welsummers, a bit heavier than the leaner looks of Barber birds.
Some breeders are also working on the size of the combs and wattles, that would be another one in the works. As for me, I think the Barber birds have HUGE combs and wattles, a major problem with folks living in the frozen zones. I like the smaller combs and smaller wattles.
Some are working on the black penciling and shaft feathers, not white but grey. If breeders have something in mind in what they want to produce without going too far off from the SOP, it can be done and we shall see some distiction between the Welsummers, hopefully subtle markings, nothing abstract.
Hope this information helps!
Jan, I suggest going back a week or two thru this thread and you will see a post I made that talked in detail regarding "lines" and "strains". I wish BYC had a better way of searching so that it would take you right to the specific post one is looking for instead of just the thread. Especially sincer there is over 600 pages in this thread now! I don't have enough time to go into it all again right now and I think it will help you if you find it. Suffice it for now to say that one needs to remember there were only FIVE original breeders to get the Welsummers approved and of those five at least two of them were from the same breeder. There is still some doubt as to one of those five breeders because not much is known about him at all. Also, I know nothing at all about Channing but I can tell you that he was NOT one of the original five breeders. I know John Hall whom I assume is the reference being made and while he has some very nice birds and eggs, I know he was NOT one of the original five breeders. He told me once where he got his Wellies from but I can't remember now and don't have time to go look for it.
Robin, if you have any pics of that egg which was "too red, almost like Barnvelder egg color", I'd like to see it. To tell the truth, I've never seen a Barnevelder egg that came anywhere's close to being red. Heck, half the time the Barnie eggs have a hard time coming close to being brown.
Also, while I am working on moving the hackle color of my females more toward the copper side of the Standard, I definitely am NOT trying to add any copper (or bronze) to the tailfeathers of either the males or females. The tail color for males should be a solid, lustrous greenish-black. I am also pretty happy with the hackles on my males as well. The color is pretty good and they're nice and clean with no stippling or shafting. Having said that, let me be clear - the "trademark" of my stock will obviously have some nuances that are different than others BUT they will ALL be WITHIN the SOP. I believe you may have gotten confused with what I'm doing to the females hackle color. So I wanted to set the record straight in order to prevent any confusion for others who may read that.
And since you mentioned combs and wattles, I will also say that I keep an eye on that as well. I have seen some Welsummers that I believe do not have the proper size of either. The SOP calls for a "Medium-sized" comb and wattles. Now obviously there is some room for differences as to what is considered "Medium" but I have seen some combs and wattles which one would have a hard time arguing that they are not in the Large category. Some may recall there was quite a discussion on this some months back in regards to a particular individuals birds. Personally, I prefer to be on the smaller size of "medium" with the wattles and right around the middle of the spectrum with combs.
On a completely different side note and perhaps a total oddity, I'll mention another thing I'm going to be trying to perpetuate and it has nothing to do with the SOP. I have a couple of pullets and hens that have a very strange gait to them when they run. It almost appears as though they are skipping. I know this must be genetic because it has been passed down to offspring from their mothers. I think it is the funniest things I've ever seen to watch them when they run so I plan to perpetuate that in my females. Maybe that will be my "trademark"! The skipping Welsummers!
God Bless,
I agree... thanks so much EweSheep! That was a HUGE help!
I know there are alot of sellers out there throwing names around very loosely... but I have still found a good many breeders that offer so many options. Kind of knowing what direction I want to go helps narrow down the breeders who might be a good fit with my goals.
Thanks!
I know there are alot of sellers out there throwing names around very loosely... but I have still found a good many breeders that offer so many options. Kind of knowing what direction I want to go helps narrow down the breeders who might be a good fit with my goals.
Thanks!
- Dec 10, 2011
- 20
- 0
- 80
I would love to see a video of the 'skipping chickens'! Ha! I'm guessing you have already checked to make sure they don't have joint restrictions.
Showing my ignorance here, but what does the Welsummer SOP indicate for expected egg color and production level? And is there info available about egg color and production levels from lines from different breeders? I know that data is hard to collect, much less substantiate. I don't completely understand the issue with darker eggs sometimes associated with lower production levels in some breeds. Is that a problem with Welsummers?
Happy New Year!
Showing my ignorance here, but what does the Welsummer SOP indicate for expected egg color and production level? And is there info available about egg color and production levels from lines from different breeders? I know that data is hard to collect, much less substantiate. I don't completely understand the issue with darker eggs sometimes associated with lower production levels in some breeds. Is that a problem with Welsummers?
Happy New Year!
Dixie's Chick :
I would love to see a video of the 'skipping chickens'! Ha! I'm guessing you have already checked to make sure they don't have joint restrictions.
Showing my ignorance here, but what does the Welsummer SOP indicate for expected egg color and production level? And is there info available about egg color and production levels from lines from different breeders? I know that data is hard to collect, much less substantiate. I don't completely understand the issue with darker eggs sometimes associated with lower production levels in some breeds. Is that a problem with Welsummers?
Happy New Year!
The SOP does not stipulate egg color or production levels. To my knowledge that is the case for any breed. For example, the WBS Ameraucanas I have should lay a blue egg but there's no way a judge would determine that. Well, that is unless the bird drops one while the judge is standing in front of the cage! LOL
Also, I haven't butchered any of the "skipping" gals but as far as I can tell it's not a leg, joint, or bone problem.
God Bless,
I would love to see a video of the 'skipping chickens'! Ha! I'm guessing you have already checked to make sure they don't have joint restrictions.
Showing my ignorance here, but what does the Welsummer SOP indicate for expected egg color and production level? And is there info available about egg color and production levels from lines from different breeders? I know that data is hard to collect, much less substantiate. I don't completely understand the issue with darker eggs sometimes associated with lower production levels in some breeds. Is that a problem with Welsummers?
Happy New Year!
The SOP does not stipulate egg color or production levels. To my knowledge that is the case for any breed. For example, the WBS Ameraucanas I have should lay a blue egg but there's no way a judge would determine that. Well, that is unless the bird drops one while the judge is standing in front of the cage! LOL
Also, I haven't butchered any of the "skipping" gals but as far as I can tell it's not a leg, joint, or bone problem.
God Bless,
Got ya, Royce, about the bronze gold colorations. It would be neat to see them in that color that is a bit "different" than the others.
It is a pity that the SOP and shows don't say, the degree of variation of the terra cotta eggs. As long we stay focused, it would be good and nothing to worry about.
As for the red terra cotta egg, I wished I've kept it. It looks more like the red Maran egg color is about the closest I can find right now. If I look at one of the BYCer Bargain's eggs with her EE/Ameraucanas, that is the closest I've come to but more of a muddish hue, not RICH reddish color. I've had a Barnvelder bantam but her egg color was light brown, no red color. Never owned any LF Barnies. I've only seen pictures of their eggs which they are brown with a reddish tint to it. But this Wellie girl laid very very dark, but not as close as a Maran's true color nor the Penes egg color. If I was to rub the brown out of it, it comes off as reddish brown. It was weird. I know this breeder, she has not had any Marans, only Welsummers for dark egg layers nor was it crossed with another breed. If she would have a much nicer disposition, I would have kept her along with hoping her daughters will be much better in conformation which it was from the Barber's side.
I know we are pretty bad about keeping the names, strains and lines. It would have been better to say I have Nate Vanwey's lines that has the CHanning/ Hall strains. Woudl that be acceptable? I know Nate has not been breeding very long but it is making an impact in those two to three years he has had them and many of us have his lines.
Royce, if you can ever remember, I would love to know where Mr Hall got his Welsummers from. I would not be surprised if it was one or two of the original five breeders in the US. It's been twenty years and its a LONG time since they imported them.
As one of the breeders mentioned that Ideal Hatchery HAD some of the Barber birds (Lowell didn't sell the birds to them directly but a person he sold it to, in turn, sold it to the hatchery). If you look at Ideal Hatcherys Welsummers, they are so far off from the SOP and the egg shell colors are not that great. A fool's gold you might say. Same for Estes Hatchery. I would no longer tell people now to get Welsummers from Estes anymore because the SOP has been awful and many folks were disapointed. If you want the Harry Shaw/Calicowoods lines, better get some from a breeder that has not gotten the stock from Estes in the last three to four years since they got them. If you find one that is between five to six years ago, you would have the better deal. Opa has the stock and working hard to improve it on the time schedule he has. Granted I love my Calicowoods hen and she was a better type of Welsummer that I've loved to have carbon copies of but improve the leg colorings a bit more. When she was young, her legs were yellow but not corn yellow-er. So if I had a better roo with YELLOW orangish legs, all for the better.
Skip, skip, skip my Lou! Skip, skip, skip, my Lou, my darling! LOLOLOL! Lets hope it is not a serious gait problem but a good one LOL! Like gaited horses, you have to work on keeping the gaits and if any structure problems would be eliminated at the same time LOL! Probably easier for them to skip than run LOL!
It is a pity that the SOP and shows don't say, the degree of variation of the terra cotta eggs. As long we stay focused, it would be good and nothing to worry about.
As for the red terra cotta egg, I wished I've kept it. It looks more like the red Maran egg color is about the closest I can find right now. If I look at one of the BYCer Bargain's eggs with her EE/Ameraucanas, that is the closest I've come to but more of a muddish hue, not RICH reddish color. I've had a Barnvelder bantam but her egg color was light brown, no red color. Never owned any LF Barnies. I've only seen pictures of their eggs which they are brown with a reddish tint to it. But this Wellie girl laid very very dark, but not as close as a Maran's true color nor the Penes egg color. If I was to rub the brown out of it, it comes off as reddish brown. It was weird. I know this breeder, she has not had any Marans, only Welsummers for dark egg layers nor was it crossed with another breed. If she would have a much nicer disposition, I would have kept her along with hoping her daughters will be much better in conformation which it was from the Barber's side.
I know we are pretty bad about keeping the names, strains and lines. It would have been better to say I have Nate Vanwey's lines that has the CHanning/ Hall strains. Woudl that be acceptable? I know Nate has not been breeding very long but it is making an impact in those two to three years he has had them and many of us have his lines.
Royce, if you can ever remember, I would love to know where Mr Hall got his Welsummers from. I would not be surprised if it was one or two of the original five breeders in the US. It's been twenty years and its a LONG time since they imported them.
As one of the breeders mentioned that Ideal Hatchery HAD some of the Barber birds (Lowell didn't sell the birds to them directly but a person he sold it to, in turn, sold it to the hatchery). If you look at Ideal Hatcherys Welsummers, they are so far off from the SOP and the egg shell colors are not that great. A fool's gold you might say. Same for Estes Hatchery. I would no longer tell people now to get Welsummers from Estes anymore because the SOP has been awful and many folks were disapointed. If you want the Harry Shaw/Calicowoods lines, better get some from a breeder that has not gotten the stock from Estes in the last three to four years since they got them. If you find one that is between five to six years ago, you would have the better deal. Opa has the stock and working hard to improve it on the time schedule he has. Granted I love my Calicowoods hen and she was a better type of Welsummer that I've loved to have carbon copies of but improve the leg colorings a bit more. When she was young, her legs were yellow but not corn yellow-er. So if I had a better roo with YELLOW orangish legs, all for the better.
Skip, skip, skip my Lou! Skip, skip, skip, my Lou, my darling! LOLOLOL! Lets hope it is not a serious gait problem but a good one LOL! Like gaited horses, you have to work on keeping the gaits and if any structure problems would be eliminated at the same time LOL! Probably easier for them to skip than run LOL!
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