Turkey Talk for 2014

[chicken pickin]

I am officially the owner of a turkey poult

Two other eggs are pipped too!

Congrats!

 

[Sydney Acres]

Chicken pickin
I am so sorry about your hen.
I have been told that you can never use anything with "cain" in it on any poultry.

Whew, you really scared me for a minute!! I would never want to recommend something like that if it wasn't safe, so I went and looked it up. (I had received that recommendation from a veterinarian, and because of that hadn't verified it before I passed it on.)

I found multiple references for using both lidocaine (a short acting local anesthetic, commonly used as an injection nerve block or as a topical gel, the brand name is Zylocaine) and bupivacaine (a long acting local anesthetic, used as an injection nerve block, and sometimes more creatively) and benzocaine (a medium-length acting local anesthesia, used as a topical gel, the active ingredient in Orogel) in chickens, ducks, raptors, and "most species" of birds. These products have been used for traditional nerve blocks, injected into joints for arthritis, injected around wounds to provide a "ring block," applied as a gel to small wounds before suturing, and I even found a reference to mixing bupivacaine 50:50 with DMSO and applying it topically to chicks after debeaking (must have been a research project, because I don't see the factory farm industry doing that). There were no references specific for turkeys, but there almost never are, for any drugs. I have been told personally by Dr. Bruce Singbeil that any drugs that are established safe in chickens can be used at the same mg/kg dosage in turkeys safely (as long as the low end of the dose range is used because turkeys are larger than chickens, which is a basic principle of any dosing decision). Dr. Singbeil is someone I trust and is the only veterinarian in the country that is board certified as a specialist in Poultry Medicine (as opposed to a specialist in Avian Medicine, or a regular veterinarian who is licensed to practice on all species, but isn't a board certified specialist in anything) that actually has a hospital and treats individual pets, as opposed to all other poultry specialists who work for industry, universities, or public health.

So bottom line, it is safe to use "cain" medications in poultry, as long as it is done carefully. You're not going to get into trouble with topical medications on a prolapse unless you squeeze the whole tube into the oviduct after you've replaced it back inside, then hold the vent closed long enough for too much of the drug to absorb into the bloodstream (it would probably take a very long time). Just applying a smear to what's hanging out, waiting 5 minutes, then working the oviduct back in will give very minimal absorption into the bloodstream immediately, as most will absorb into the tissues. It will take hours for the drug to slowly work its way out of the tissues, giving the body plenty of time to metabolize it. If you were to use injectable local anesthetics, then poultry are somewhat sensitive to them by comparison to other species, on a mg/kg basis, so total injected dose has to be monitored carefully to avoid complications. But that's true for all small animals and humans. The only time it's not an issue is with cattle and horses, which are so large that it's almost impossible to overdose with those drugs. So I can see how many people would believe that "cain" products are dangerous in poultry. Most vets that come to farms are large animal vets. If a farmer were to ask a large animal vet to treat a 5-10 lb chicken, when he's used to treating a 1,000 lb animal without concern for total injected dosage, I could easily see an overdose occurring. That happens a few times and all of a sudden the medication is labelled as dangerous.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Thanks for everyones responses in regards to my hen. Im debating on instead of doing treatment to maybe cull her instead

If I decide to process her, her meat should still be ok to eat correct?

Yes, the meat should be ok to eat, as long as she doesn't get so sick that it goes bad. It wouldn't necessarily be dangerous if properly cooked, but it might taste bad if she's close to death before you slaughter her. Plus she's really suffering if this is a prolapse, so whatever you decide to do should be as soon as possible. Whether you decide to treat her or slaughter her, the longer you wait the less likely you are to have a good outcome.

 

[chickadoodles]

Whew, you really scared me for a minute!! I would never want to recommend something like that if it wasn't safe, so I went and looked it up. (I had received that recommendation from a veterinarian, and because of that hadn't verified it before I passed it on.)

I found multiple references for using both lidocaine (a short acting local anesthetic, commonly used as an injection nerve block or as a topical gel, the brand name is Zylocaine) and bupivacaine (a long acting local anesthetic, used as an injection nerve block, and sometimes more creatively) and benzocaine (a medium-length acting local anesthesia, used as a topical gel, the active ingredient in Orogel) in chickens, ducks, raptors, and "most species" of birds. These products have been used for traditional nerve blocks, injected into joints for arthritis, injected around wounds to provide a "ring block," applied as a gel to small wounds before suturing, and I even found a reference to mixing bupivacaine 50:50 with DMSO and applying it topically to chicks after debeaking (must have been a research project, because I don't see the factory farm industry doing that). There were no references specific for turkeys, but there almost never are, for any drugs. I have been told personally by Dr. Bruce Singbeil that any drugs that are established safe in chickens can be used at the same mg/kg dosage in turkeys safely (as long as the low end of the dose range is used because turkeys are larger than chickens, which is a basic principle of any dosing decision). Dr. Singbeil is someone I trust and is the only veterinarian in the country that is board certified as a specialist in Poultry Medicine (as opposed to a specialist in Avian Medicine, or a regular veterinarian who is licensed to practice on all species, but isn't a board certified specialist in anything) that actually has a hospital and treats individual pets, as opposed to all other poultry specialists who work for industry, universities, or public health.

So bottom line, it is safe to use "cain" medications in poultry, as long as it is done carefully. You're not going to get into trouble with topical medications on a prolapse unless you squeeze the whole tube into the oviduct after you've replaced it back inside, then hold the vent closed long enough for too much of the drug to absorb into the bloodstream (it would probably take a very long time). Just applying a smear to what's hanging out, waiting 5 minutes, then working the oviduct back in will give very minimal absorption into the bloodstream immediately, as most will absorb into the tissues. It will take hours for the drug to slowly work its way out of the tissues, giving the body plenty of time to metabolize it. If you were to use injectable local anesthetics, then poultry are somewhat sensitive to them by comparison to other species, on a mg/kg basis, so total injected dose has to be monitored carefully to avoid complications. But that's true for all small animals and humans. The only time it's not an issue is with cattle and horses, which are so large that it's almost impossible to overdose with those drugs. So I can see how many people would believe that "cain" products are dangerous in poultry. Most vets that come to farms are large animal vets. If a farmer were to ask a large animal vet to treat a 5-10 lb chicken, when he's used to treating a 1,000 lb animal without concern for total injected dosage, I could easily see an overdose occurring. That happens a few times and all of a sudden the medication is labelled as dangerous.

Thanks Sydney, I was even told not to use Neosporin with the pain reliever in it as it contained "Cain". I have never used anything that said cain on it for that reason But I appreciate your looking it up.

 

[Penny Hen]

Thanks Sydney, I was even told not to use Neosporin with the pain reliever in it as it contained "Cain". I have never used anything that said cain on it for that reason But I appreciate your looking it up.

You can even use the Neosporin on cats totally safely and cats are very easy to poison.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
I would actually be more concerned about using Neosporin with any of the topical pain relievers in cats than in birds. As different species go, cats are the most sensitive of all to the local anesthetic doses, and they tend to lick off any topical medication you put on them. But even with cats, if you're using it in a very thin smear over a small area, you're unlikely to use enough to cause an overdose, so it would be safe in most situations (although it could numb their tongue and make it difficult for them to swallow for several hours).

 

[Penny Hen]

I would actually be more concerned about using Neosporin with any of the topical pain relievers in cats than in birds. As different species go, cats are the most sensitive of all to the local anesthetic doses, and they tend to lick off any topical medication you put on them. But even with cats, if you're using it in a very thin smear over a small area, you're unlikely to use enough to cause an overdose, so it would be safe in most situations (although it could numb their tongue and make it difficult for them to swallow for several hours).

The times that I have used it with the numbing agent in it my cat has been offput by the numbing sensation that it gave his tongue and ceased to lick it. I usually vet wrap a serious wound so they can't pick at it anyway.

 

[Sydney Acres]

Quote:
That worked great. Smart cat!

 

[Sydney Acres]

Thanks Sydney, I was even told not to use Neosporin with the pain reliever in it as it contained "Cain". I have never used anything that said cain on it for that reason But I appreciate your looking it up.

You're welcome. Actually I totally forgot about a situation that happened last year. A friend of mine was out of town for 3 days and left her husband to take care of the chickens (did I hear every woman reading this simultaneously groan, smirk, shake her head, chuckle or smile?). When she came home she went out to the coop to find one of the hens severely limping, essentially non-weight bearing on one leg. She called me crying, saying that she was going to have to cull it because it had baling twine fibers wrapped around its leg so tight that it had cut through the flesh and was down to the bone, and smelled like rot (so it didn't just happen that day, and was severely infected). I knew it was one of her favorite hens, so I asked her to bring it over to my house to see what could be done.

It was horrible. It really was old baling twine, the kind with 15-20 thin strands twirled together, wrapped round and round and round the leg, cut through the flesh down to the bone, on the shank, right between the 4th and 5th toe (it's a Dorking, so she had 5 toes instead of the usual 4), and completely twirled and knotted around the entire length of the 5th toe. The foot was terribly swollen and dark purple, but she still has some feeling in each toe. The nerves and blood vessels were still intact. There was pus everywhere, and OMG it stunk. But she was a sweet little hen of breeding quality who had a chance to recover, so I wanted to try. We got some of the twine unwrapped, but it was just too painful. I had a bottle of bupivacaine in the barn, so I soaked some cotton balls in the drug, dripping wet, placed them in contact with every spot of open flesh, then wrapped it all up in Saran wrap for 20 minutes (bupivacaine takes longer to take effect than lidocaine, but lasts a lot longer). When I removed everything the area was completely numb, as the medication had been pulled deep into the wound along the twine fibers. I was able to completely pull out every fiber (it really was a disaster, it took an hour even with a cooperative bird, good lighting and magnification), cut off the 5th toe (there was no saving it), and fully explore the wound without her moving at all -- she actually ate for 15 minutes in the middle of everything, she was so totally pain free (for the first time in days). She did require daily bandaging, antibiotics, and antiinflammatories, but she recovered fully (it took a long time, several weeks for the infection to clear and the wound to heal over, then 2-3 months before she had normal neurological function in that foot if I remember). I don't think I could have gotten the wound adequately cleaned out or the toe amputated without the local anesthesia -- she wouldn't have held still for it.

I always have some of the injectable form, and the gel, at home. The injectable form (liquid) works great for soaking open wounds where you need deeper penetration, but it doesn't stay put unless you do something like the cotton balls and saran wrap trick. The gel can go under a BandAid (which work surprising well on feet and shanks as the first layer under a wrap) or telfa pad and then be wrapped, but it doesn't seem to penetrate as deeply. But it's great for prolapses, and acts as both numbing agent and lubricant. The gel also works great for wounds that have a lot of debris in them, but where you only need surface pain control and not deep pain control. Smear a generous layer of gel on the wound, wait 5-10 minutes, then start "stirring" the gel around with a gloved finger. It "unsticks" most of the debris so it can be wiped off easily, and prevents pain while you're handling the wound.

 

[chicken pickin]

Update on my turkey hen with the prolapse


She past away on her own this afternoon...


I cant believe I didn't notice something was wrong sooner than last night, they have all been acting normal so I didn't suspect any problems.