Update, Necropsy Results

[DwayneNLiz]

That’s good information to know thank you!! do you or does anybody know where I can get organic feed pellets without soy? I’m allergic to soy.

http://www.greenmountainfeeds.com/products/poultry/organic-soy-free-layer-pellets/

it looks like there are a lot of places that carry it too

 

[Acre4Me]

sorry for your loss!!

 

[moniquem]

I have been a veterinary technician for 35 years, I've seen a lot of young dogs/cats puppies/kittens die from something genetic/hereditary. There is nothing anyone can do about it. No predictors......

Its a sad thing and owners always feel guilty. This will pass and we will move on. Just know that while your little special chickie was here you gave her the best home she could have asked for

 

[Michael Propst]

I promise I would LAY OFF all the extra pumpkin this and mixed veg or salad that. It isn't doing the shooks as much good as you might think and maybe more harm than not. I would replace a lot of the salad stuff with sprouts which have much more protein, vitamins and minerals than the lettuce or cooked carrots/peas/corn... whatever your mix is. Would benefit them more in the raw form than having the nutrients depleted by cooking. Using Nutri drench every day might be excessive too. It has E in it which can be overdosed on. And NO supplement should be given

Raising chickens has been a very rewarding experience so far. I have learned allot along the way and learn more everyday, sometimes we learn the hard way by losing a girl, but with each lesson learned it makes us more equipment to handle the next situation. I have found a fantastic avian vet who I have consulted with several times. I have reached out to product manufactures with questions and found them all more than willing to promptly reply and assist with professional information. And then there has been this community of experts that have been a true blessing to the newby chicken people.

I have already stopped giving all the extras. They are now on a diet of fermented feed, I still offer dry feed in a feeder as the fermented is freezing quickly this winter and I have a few that just prefer the dry. Also to weigh in on many of the comments about crumble and pellets and the girls picking and choosing from the feeder. I have not had any problem with my girls eating everything in the feed maybe that is the difference in buy a top quality whole feed that is only filled with good stuff. Heck they even dig down and scratch away around the feeder to get anything that drops out. I try to avoid processed diets in not only my life by my animals lives to allow them to live and eat as natural of a diet as possible, that is why I choose a whole organic non-gmo product. Even my dogs and cats I keep on a raw food grain free diet. They do still get the sprouted grains but only about cup a day and that measurement is after they are sprouted. I have been tossing about 1/8 cup of scratch into their run to give them something to dig around for during the day. I typically like them to free range as much as possible but this has been a rough and frigid winter so far, in the past 2 weeks they have only came out 3 times to run around the yard. I will give them a small amount of raw vegetables a couple times a week but when I do it is about 1/2 cup. They now get very little food that was not specifically designed for chickens.

Everyone makes their own choices in feed but here is why I like whole products compared to processed. Let look at the ingredient list

Scratch and Peck Naturally Free Organic Layer
Organic Wheat, Organic Barley, Organic Peas, Organic Flaxseed Meal, Ground Limestone, Fish Meal, Organic Sesame Meal, Organic Flaxseed Oil, Vitamin and Mineral Premix

Purina Layena Pellets
Ingredients: Processed Grain By-Products, Grain Products, Plant Protein Products, Calcium Carbonate, Salt, Pyridoxine Hydrochloride, DL-Methionine, Tagetes (Aztec Marigold) Extract (Color), Choline Chloride, Calcium Pantothenate, Vitamin E Supplement, Riboflavin Supplement, Vitamin D3 Supplement, Manganous Oxide, Menadione Sodium Bisulfite Complex (source of Vitamin K), Niacin Supplement, Vitamin B-12 Supplement, Folic Acid, Vitamin A Supplement, Dried Aspergillus oryzae Fermentation Extract, Zinc Oxide, Copper Sulfate, Sodium Selenite, Inulin, Calcium Iodate, Dried Enterococcus faecium Fermentation Product, Dried Pediococcus acidilacticii Fermentation Product, Dried Bificobacterium animalis Fermentation product, Dried Lactobacillus reuteri Fermentation Product, Diatomaceous Earth.

 

[bruceha2000]

I'm sorry for your loss. I for sure lost a 15 month old EE to fatty liver disease in 2016. I did the necropsy and posted pictures for more knowledgeable people to look at. She was out with all the other girls, fine at 6:00 PM, found dead at 6:30 PM. I MAY have lost a nearly 2 Y/O in 2014 of the same thing. Same lack of symptoms and fine at 8:30 AM, dead at 11 AM scenario. No necropsy was done.

I wouldn't overthink it. My guess is genetics are more likely the cause than diet. My girls (first 12 in June 2012, 7 more in 2015, 6 more in 2017) have ALWAYS had Poulin feed free choice, kitchen scraps and BOSS treats in the morning, scratch treat before bed. They free range when the ground is not snow covered. If FLD (in my flock!) were feed based I think I would have lost a lot more girls to it. If one is breeding their own replacements and find FLD in multiple chickens, I would not breed the chickens that have a parent that died of FLD. Of course I do NOT know that it is a genetic predisposition, it is just a guess.

 

[EggSighted4Life]

Vitamin and Mineral Premix

Is going to be a LOT of these funky words on the other label(including the amino acids). Maybe dumbed down (simplified) so they don't have to print it and make people go , ugh I wanted something that had all words I could pronounce. I wonder how they get the vitamin/mineral premix to stick onto the other stuff so it get's consumed equally. The word "meal" as in the flaxseed, fish, and sesame on your label... says something IS processed to me. Just food for thought since I'm a major over thinker! I know it's still a matter of choosing the best of what's available to you and in your price range

I AGREE 100% that I do not like the vagueness of feeds..

Processed Grain By-Products, Grain Products, Plant Protein Products

However, part of the reason they are vague is because the formula changes according to what's available.

What people don't understand is that NOT ALL gmo's are bad. And NOT ALL organics is good. Organic poison is still poison. Lead, arsenic, dog poo... all organic! Grains aren't all bad either. They provide energy and some nutrients. Grains in excess is the issue for most people, though some have allergies not everybody does. That doesn't mean gluten is BAD for you, just bad for some.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against organic or non gmo. I'm simply not a jump on the band wagon until the NEXT study comes out type person. First eggs are bad, then they're good... which is it? Then butter is worse than margarine but now margarine is cancerous to. We loved margarine when I was a kid and thought real butter was bland and for poor people (since we use to get it from the commodity line). Now I can't even tell you the last time we had margarine in our house and even take my own butter to restaurants I know don't have it if I know I'm gonna use it! Note, not all butters are created equal. Side by side on my counter we had Walmart brand butter, Rumianno (our local cheese factory), and Costco butter. The Rumianno and Costco were rock solid at room temp and the walmart butter (same price as both others if not more) was soft and spreadable like "Parkay" or whatever that commercial used to say!

FF, one of those bandwagon things... though I think some is OK.

Ya, lots of things cause cancer. Maybe part of the reason it's so rampant today is because we didn't KNOW why people died in the past. Without the technology to detect it. And also, we didn't have instant access to that kind of news at our finger tips.

I have to be honest ( I grow without chemicals), but a LOT of stuff labeled as organic simply isn't delicious. Anyways, I don't mean to argue or judge, just sharing my thoughts.

We RARELY eat processed (canned or boxed) food, it may be convenient but it taste terrible. Was fine as a child but now my taste buds are more refined. But how do you eat eggs on a raw food diet? Has sounded intriguing to me but haven't made the commitment. Just decreased our consumption of meat and try to buy local pasture raised, grass fed and finished beef.. line caught fish, and so on. We even started buying raw milk until the reality of it set in and I discovered one of my local vets wife had become paralyzed as a side effect. Wasn't worth the risk to family even though was willing and did pay $16 per gallon! I raise animals and fruits/veggies... farming is hard work. Gives me a MUCH better appreciation for what I do have to pay at the supermarket.

My birds eat all their feed too. No waste. And it may not be a top of the line product, but it IS formulated to MEET the needs of the chickens.

When people rant about dogs not being able to digest corn... well, neither can humans... when it's whole (I've turned around and seen the stuff! ). But I still enjoy it and try to chew. We switched to lamb and rice. It works well for my dogs, some will do better with chicken as their main source of protein. And doesn't produce really large bulky poos the way I see other corn based fed pups do.... in addition to a usually clear difference in body sent and fur condition. Mind sharing what size are your dogs and how much it cost you to feed them in that way (though time consumption is a main reason I haven't) considered it. And are you able to do free choice feeding that way or is it set meal times? Do you know if people who feed that way see any more aggression at feeding time then regular? One of my dogs just loves veggies and the other don't. I used to have a dog that picked all the red tomatoes and we never got one and finally saw him sniffing and choosing! Sorry, I should have started another thread and tagged you.

Thanks tons for sharing!

 

[EggSighted4Life]

I'm sorry for your loss. I for sure lost a 15 month old EE to fatty liver disease in 2016. I did the necropsy and posted pictures for more knowledgeable people to look at. She was out with all the other girls, fine at 6:00 PM, found dead at 6:30 PM. I MAY have lost a nearly 2 Y/O in 2014 of the same thing. Same lack of symptoms and fine at 8:30 AM, dead at 11 AM scenario. No necropsy was done.

I wouldn't overthink it. My guess is genetics are more likely the cause than diet. My girls (first 12 in June 2012, 7 more in 2015, 6 more in 2017) have ALWAYS had Poulin feed free choice, kitchen scraps and BOSS treats in the morning, scratch treat before bed. They free range when the ground is not snow covered. If FLD (in my flock!) were feed based I think I would have lost a lot more girls to it. If one is breeding their own replacements and find FLD in multiple chickens, I would not breed the chickens that have a parent that died of FLD. Of course I do NOT know that it is a genetic predisposition, it is just a guess.

I have friends that can eat the SAME EXACT thing as me and they stay forever skinny (not more active than I am) while I am a little over weight AND have diabetes. Even from the same parent I see a fat twin and a skinny twin, or a pretty and an ugly one... I'm definitely not a geneticist either! But I do find it very intriguing since I started raising and breeding chickens. And completely agree not breed forward bad genetics.

With the calcium overload people talk about causing kidney failure in some... that is also a genetic predisposition.

I did just research if NAFLD (non alcoholic) was genetic or not. It appears that it can be but is ALSO heavily influenced by LIFESTYLE. Being at a higher risk for something doesn't mean you will develop it. With my diabetes (type 2 for more than 22 years now) I have a "higher risk" of developing heart disease, hypertension, and whole host of other things. Even though I binge sometimes and have some issues, my mother in law who "eats right" still has hypertension AND high cholesterol.

So I might go out on a limb and say that it could very well be a combination of lifestyle AND genetics.

How many sudden deaths that occurred from this cause were linked to "it just happens" or "it was probably a heart attack".

I never knew this was a possibility, but now it's on my radar! I wish there were more obvious symptoms.

 

[flwrldy]

I realise that this isn't constructive, but Holy shoot. I just feed mine layer feed--and amish-lawnmower cut dandelions when they're locked up.

Cracked corn isn't supposed to contain nearly as much nutrition as whole corn does--just repeating what I read "somewhere" but it makes sense that the nutrients would degrade faster when the seed is broken open.

Mine absolutely love corn.

Also, the vet who said that sometimes they just die? Hogwash. There's always a reason. Good on you for finding it.

Since I was thirteen, I've written down the symptoms of every sick chicken I've had, and if I couldn't find the ailment then, I've identified it since so that I'm prepared. I really recommend the practice if you can't afford vet visits.

I agree with everything you said and love your ideas!!
Thank you

 

[flwrldy]

Very sorry to read this, I'm emotionally attached to my chickens and each one is very precious to me. I am glad that you where able to get some closer on this issue and maybe help you feel a little better about it. She had a severe issue nobody could have foreseen or prevented.

Thank you
Me too everyone of them

 

[flwrldy]

Is going to be a LOT of these funky words on the other label(including the amino acids). Maybe dumbed down (simplified) so they don't have to print it and make people go , ugh I wanted something that had all words I could pronounce. I wonder how they get the vitamin/mineral premix to stick onto the other stuff so it get's consumed equally. The word "meal" as in the flaxseed, fish, and sesame on your label... says something IS processed to me. Just food for thought since I'm a major over thinker! I know it's still a matter of choosing the best of what's available to you and in your price range

I AGREE 100% that I do not like the vagueness of feeds..


However, part of the reason they are vague is because the formula changes according to what's available.

What people don't understand is that NOT ALL gmo's are bad. And NOT ALL organics is good. Organic poison is still poison. Lead, arsenic, dog poo... all organic! Grains aren't all bad either. They provide energy and some nutrients. Grains in excess is the issue for most people, though some have allergies not everybody does. That doesn't mean gluten is BAD for you, just bad for some.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not against organic or non gmo. I'm simply not a jump on the band wagon until the NEXT study comes out type person. First eggs are bad, then they're good... which is it? Then butter is worse than margarine but now margarine is cancerous to. We loved margarine when I was a kid and thought real butter was bland and for poor people (since we use to get it from the commodity line). Now I can't even tell you the last time we had margarine in our house and even take my own butter to restaurants I know don't have it if I know I'm gonna use it! Note, not all butters are created equal. Side by side on my counter we had Walmart brand butter, Rumianno (our local cheese factory), and Costco butter. The Rumianno and Costco were rock solid at room temp and the walmart butter (same price as both others if not more) was soft and spreadable like "Parkay" or whatever that commercial used to say!

FF, one of those bandwagon things... though I think some is OK.

Ya, lots of things cause cancer. Maybe part of the reason it's so rampant today is because we didn't KNOW why people died in the past. Without the technology to detect it. And also, we didn't have instant access to that kind of news at our finger tips.

I have to be honest ( I grow without chemicals), but a LOT of stuff labeled as organic simply isn't delicious. Anyways, I don't mean to argue or judge, just sharing my thoughts.

We RARELY eat processed (canned or boxed) food, it may be convenient but it taste terrible. Was fine as a child but now my taste buds are more refined. But how do you eat eggs on a raw food diet? Has sounded intriguing to me but haven't made the commitment. Just decreased our consumption of meat and try to buy local pasture raised, grass fed and finished beef.. line caught fish, and so on. We even started buying raw milk until the reality of it set in and I discovered one of my local vets wife had become paralyzed as a side effect. Wasn't worth the risk to family even though was willing and did pay $16 per gallon! I raise animals and fruits/veggies... farming is hard work. Gives me a MUCH better appreciation for what I do have to pay at the supermarket.

My birds eat all their feed too. No waste. And it may not be a top of the line product, but it IS formulated to MEET the needs of the chickens.

When people rant about dogs not being able to digest corn... well, neither can humans... when it's whole (I've turned around and seen the stuff! ). But I still enjoy it and try to chew. We switched to lamb and rice. It works well for my dogs, some will do better with chicken as their main source of protein. And doesn't produce really large bulky poos the way I see other corn based fed pups do.... in addition to a usually clear difference in body sent and fur condition. Mind sharing what size are your dogs and how much it cost you to feed them in that way (though time consumption is a main reason I haven't) considered it. And are you able to do free choice feeding that way or is it set meal times? Do you know if people who feed that way see any more aggression at feeding time then regular? One of my dogs just loves veggies and the other don't. I used to have a dog that picked all the red tomatoes and we never got one and finally saw him sniffing and choosing! Sorry, I should have started another thread and tagged you.

Thanks tons for sharing!

For me I say stick as close to nature as possible. Don’t listen to the “experts” they are always changing their minds like you said. If it’s made in a lab or altered like GMO seed is altered, I won’t eat it. God knew what He was doing, but man makes a mess.
Corn..No never looked lol ok maybe once or twice haha