way to keep hawks out temporaly* Please don't read if you protect hawk

[haTHOR]

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engaging in respectful debate--even a heated one--is not now and never will be harassment--but it might feel like it to those who want to shut a conversation down. i think this is a great thread and the free and open exchange of ideas is another hallmark of a civil society. sometimes if one is getting too frustrated it is better to step back and take a breath rather than try to shut others down.

I am not frustrated in the least, and the above was just pointing out a comparison, you obviously think it was directed. But I do however think telling a person they are going to prison for a misdemeanor bordering on harassment. You should read the laws sometimes they are interesting and it is amazing what is actually against the law.

I love a healthy debate but there is a limit to what is debating and what is considered insulting to others. Discussing the laws and telling someone they are going to jail is two different things. IMO myself included we are completely ignoring the request for ideas, but instead debating what should and should not be. So far nobody here has suggested anything illegal except for maybe one SSS post. The OP clearly intends to get a permit. NOBODY has advocated shooting firearms into the air, yet that accusation has been made several times. It is not part of a healthy debate to make accusations that are not true.

I would suggest that if some find the topic of killing a raptor legally so upsets them that they take their own advice.

killing a raptor legally doen't concern me, to be honest. the attitude that we shouldn't HAVE to have a permit happens to one i disagree with because i actually do think the folks i know wildlife management, etc. are the most knowledgeable and competent on the issue. not everyone can be an expert on raptors--i know i'm not--but i'm glad there are folks that do study the issue, and create regulations regarding best practices. barring good empirical evidence that they are wrong, i'm going to support their decisions and want others to do so too. it's all about being a good citizen, to me.

i don't think i mentioned jail, but i could be wrong.

finally, i DEFINITELY think the OP has been given tons of responses...can't see at all how "we are completely ignoring the request for ideas". i don't want to quote in the multiple posts, but there are here.

i thought your discussion of how you keep predators at bay was a good example of how to work with one's situation wrt: predators.

 

[muell112]

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I just looked and there have been revisions to the Migratory Bird Treaty Act: "In the 24 August 2006 edition of the Federal Register, the U.S. Department of the Interior's Fish and Wildlife Service proposed adding 152 species, removing 12 species, and correcting/updating the common or scientific names of numerous others. Reasons for the proposed revisions include birds mistakenly omitted previously, new evidence on geographic distribution, taxonomic changes, etc. ...The previous update to the list occurred on 5 April 1985."

So, while hopefully a law that seeks to protect species that migrate across national boundaries doesn't "change" or cease to exist, it sounds like there is flexibility to incorporate changes in population status etc - if deemed appropriate and necessary by individuals trained in the biology of the species and knowledgeable about their conservation status beyond general observation in a limited geographical area.

From what I've taken from a series of posts in this thread, passion is arising when illegal means of control are discussed (i.e. anything that isn't outlined in your permit, or anything that's done before you obtain a permit). The thread itself starts "please don't read if you protect hawks".

I think there are some great ideas here, including attracting crows, providing more shelter within the area your chickens use, cds that spin in the wind, rabbits as an alternative prey or, alternatively, removing available prey (including access to fat tasty chickens) so the hawk population naturally controls itself...ways that don't involve killing a federally-protected species that was put on a list for very specific reasons. This law and others like it (clean water act, endangered species act etc) were put into place to react to problems created and identified by our society in a democratic process that I'm sure we all appreciate.

As far as hawks attacking our children and fear mongering about the need to hide them in our homes to protect them, I think those are extremely isolated instances that go beyond the scope of this thread.

 

[aprophet]

Quote:
I just looked and there have been revisions to the Migratory Bird Treaty Act: "In the 24 August 2006 edition of the Federal Register, the U.S. Department of the Interior's Fish and Wildlife Service proposed adding 152 species, removing 12 species, and correcting/updating the common or scientific names of numerous others. Reasons for the proposed revisions include birds mistakenly omitted previously, new evidence on geographic distribution, taxonomic changes, etc. ...The previous update to the list occurred on 5 April 1985."

So, while hopefully a law that seeks to protect species that migrate across national boundaries doesn't "change" or cease to exist, it sounds like there is flexibility to incorporate changes in population status etc - if deemed appropriate and necessary by individuals trained in the biology of the species and knowledgeable about their conservation status beyond general observation in a limited geographical area.

From what I've taken from a series of posts in this thread, passion is arising when illegal means of control are discussed (i.e. anything that isn't outlined in your permit, or anything that's done before you obtain a permit). The thread itself starts "please don't read if you protect hawks".

I think there are some great ideas here, including attracting crows, providing more shelter within the area your chickens use, cds that spin in the wind, rabbits as an alternative prey or, alternatively, removing available prey (including access to fat tasty chickens) so the hawk population naturally controls itself...ways that don't involve killing a federally-protected species that was put on a list for very specific reasons. This law and others like it (clean water act, endangered species act etc) were put into place to react to problems created and identified by our society in a democratic process that I'm sure we all appreciate.

As far as hawks attacking our children and fear mongering about the need to hide them in our homes to protect them, I think those are extremely isolated instances that go beyond the scope of this thread.

I used these ( CD's) and christmas tinsel to draw several bobcats in this past trapping season it brought them in pretty quick caught 3 in 2 days.just saying if you have bobcats around you may try something else.

 

[Oven Ready]

Quote:
Unfortunately cats can and do die from BB shots. I have seen many in my practice. It depends on where they are shot. They do hate a shot with the hose though and it doesn't cause more harm than a cold shower would.

Apologies, if my post may a sounded a little 'Gung-Ho'.

I agree with you that a BB gun can kill a cat but it is my least lethal option at a distance. Up the scale is the slingshot which will almost certainly kill a cat, or fatally wound it, as we use .22 steel bearings. The BB gun is only effective in scaring dogs, it does not keep them away while usually a few hits from the slingshot over a few days is enough to keep them outside our perimeter. At the lethal end of the scale is the shotgun which we've only ever used on one persistent dog who was not deterred by the slingshot despite being hit on numerous occaisions. The shotgun worked very effectively.

I don't like to kill animals and would prefer that they took heed of the warning however there are times when we have to do things we don't enjoy and protecting things we care about is one of those times.

I don't much like dogs, I love cats, birds and reptiles, but we are 'cat-less' at the moment thanks to a large snake, and would never harm any of them without good reason. I just wish they would understand the warnings better.

 

[vatterpa]

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How do you think you hunt ducks, turkeys, grouse, ect? More people die from idiots shooting up in the air on new years and holidays than from hunting.

Excuse Me!! bird Hunters use shotguns, not Handguns or rifles

Just because I'm a hunter does not mean I'm an Idiot! Many Hunters are smart, safe people!

Shot guns can have slugs, thank you. I was refering to the idiots that use a handgun or rifle as an celebration toy, NOT hunters. I live with a bunch of hunters and I have taken the Hunters Safety Course with a score of 100, thank you. I have also so hunted myself. I didn't say "Rifle" as you can die just as easily form any firearm. I have no problem with hunters or firearm user/owners, only with people that think that every said person is irresponsible and unable to safely handle them.

 

[chickenwhisperer123]

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Our little hawk ripped right through ours and killed 7. That is NOT a good idea..

 

[fancbrd4me02]

Why not just accept that if you free range, you will have some losses? All of my birds are essentially pets, but they like to free range. If a hawk gets them, so be it. I'm not going to get all worked up about it. If a hawk makes a habit of killing my chickens, i shut them up until it moves on. If he gets one, I grieve and get on with life. If you don't like losses maybe you shouldn't free range, or maybe you should build a covered run.

 

[WalkingWolf]

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If your addressing the OP you should read that not only are the hawks affecting the chickens but other wildlife, which in turn he believes is sparking a rise of other predators taking pets other than chickens.

I free range and accept losses, but that does not mean I take an inactive role in their protection while allowing them that freedom. No different than I would protect my grandchildren from a predator while they were playing ball or any outside activity whether that be two legged or four legged. He has a right to free range and use those legally accepted means to protect his flock, his pets, and his family.

I lost three chicks yesterday to a black snake, my fault I relocated the snake instead of dispatching him and he came back. I am not losing sleep over it and due to the large mouse population this year I would still relocate the snake. But I think nothing of killing one if it is a problem that is out of control.

I cannot force or gently shove any other person to handle their flock in my fashion. I respect how you handle your flock, and will not second guess your decisions. I do not think the OP wants to take a casual sit back role, and probably does not want to pen his chickens up ALL the time. None of us has any idea of the OP's housing and I hope the OP returns to keep an active role in the discussion and clarifies things along some lines for us.

 

[fancbrd4me02]

Quote:
If your addressing the OP you should read that not only are the hawks affecting the chickens but other wildlife, which in turn he believes is sparking a rise of other predators taking pets other than chickens.

I free range and accept losses, but that does not mean I take an inactive role in their protection while allowing them that freedom. No different than I would protect my grandchildren from a predator while they were playing ball or any outside activity whether that be two legged or four legged. He has a right to free range and use those legally accepted means to protect his flock, his pets, and his family.

I lost three chicks yesterday to a black snake, my fault I relocated the snake instead of dispatching him and he came back. I am not losing sleep over it and due to the large mouse population this year I would still relocate the snake. But I think nothing of killing one if it is a problem that is out of control.

I cannot force or gently shove any other person to handle their flock in my fashion. I respect how you handle your flock, and will not second guess your decisions. I do not think the OP wants to take a casual sit back role, and probably does not want to pen his chickens up ALL the time. None of us has any idea of the OP's housing and I hope the OP returns to keep an active role in the discussion and clarifies things along some lines for us.

I agree, you cannot force anyone. But you can make suggestions, as I have. I don't sit around if I see a hawk bothering my flock, but I don't go after the hawk. I just pen up. Different philisophical approach. I am pretty sure that I have a lot lower stress about this than those who want to fight instead of flow, though.

 

[Stevo]

Shooting the hawk will not solve your problem. Not that I am against it. I am an avid hunter and own many firearms. Raptors are territorial and if you kill it another will just move in. The young birds are always looking for an area of thier own. You would have to sit out there all day to keep them safe. But I do have a solution for you and it works fine. I had wire along the bottom of my coop to keep the chickens from going under there. I noticed one day all of a sudden all the chickens were trying to get under it and inside. Just then a Turkey Vulture flew over. Although the vulture only eats dead things they were doing what came naturally to them. Run for cover. I removed the wire and now anything (even a plane lol) flies over and they are gone.

So now your solution is if you dont have a underside for them to hide under.... place some plywood on some cynderblocks. They will run under thier and be safe. Chickens are smarter than most people think lol.