Cochin breeding, genetics, and showing

[AndyCap]

Hey all, i have a question for the breeders of white cochins and cochin bantams.

Are the best white cochins dominant white or recessive white? i would assume that either would work better on a silver base.

My next question is a hypothetical. If you have a dominant white line, and a recessive white line, would you not consider crossing them and getting both dominant and recessive white in one bird? Is that even possible?

Would an silver bird homozygous for dominant and recessive white be the purest white?

 

[Black Cochin Bantams]

Hey all, i have a question for the breeders of white cochins and cochin bantams.

Are the best white cochins dominant white or recessive white? i would assume that either would work better on a silver base.

My next question is a hypothetical. If you have a dominant white line, and a recessive white line, would you not consider crossing them and getting both dominant and recessive white in one bird? Is that even possible?

Would an silver bird homozygous for dominant and recessive white be the purest white?

Great question and I am don't have an answer. I am also very interested in this question.

 

[lilcrow]

Great question and I am don't have an answer. I am also very interested in this question.

Me too.

 

[AndyCap]

Hey all,

I am curious about The Standard when it comes to patterned varieties, why does it still describe birds that cannot be bred from single mating?

To a newcomer like me this seems a bit absurd, as now you are breeding two separate varieties under the guise of a male bird and a female bird of the same variety.

Look at Partridge (and Silver Pencilled), the male described is more like a Duckwing, the female a patterned brown.

Both, as currently described in the standard, cannot be bred consistently (or at all )by single mating. So why do we need to breed two separate lines to enter one variety?

Surely the standard should actually reflect what can be achieved by mating male to female in one pen?

Is there something simple i am missing here, because these birds described are not only different in phenotype but in genotype as well, how are these the same birds?

Male partridge lacks Pg in its pure form, female has pure Pg. This to me shows two separate varieties, not one. Why cant we show the males that produce the SQ females, why are chests still required to be fully black? Something that does not seem possible from a SQ male to SQ female breeding.

Our standard here is a "copy and paste" from yours in the States, and while i have no problem with that, i cant help but think there is some antiquated thinking here that is not helping the fancy at all in the long run.

Not angry or upset, just really confused at why this is what is required. It doesnt make sense to me.

 

[Black Cochin Bantams]

Hey all,

I am curious about The Standard when it comes to patterned varieties, why does it still describe birds that cannot be bred from single mating?

To a newcomer like me this seems a bit absurd, as now you are breeding two separate varieties under the guise of a male bird and a female bird of the same variety.

Look at Partridge (and Silver Pencilled), the male described is more like a Duckwing, the female a patterned brown.

Both, as currently described in the standard, cannot be bred consistently (or at all )by single mating. So why do we need to breed two separate lines to enter one variety?

Surely the standard should actually reflect what can be achieved by mating male to female in one pen?

Is there something simple i am missing here, because these birds described are not only different in phenotype but in genotype as well, how are these the same birds?

Male partridge lacks Pg in its pure form, female has pure Pg. This to me shows two separate varieties, not one. Why cant we show the males that produce the SQ females, why are chests still required to be fully black? Something that does not seem possible from a SQ male to SQ female breeding.

Our standard here is a "copy and paste" from yours in the States, and while i have no problem with that, i cant help but think there is some antiquated thinking here that is not helping the fancy at all in the long run.

Not angry or upset, just really confused at why this is what is required. It doesnt make sense to me.

Again I do not have an answer. I made a decision to only breed for 1 line. I am currently trying to breed hen line birds. I love the lacing in the hen line birds. I have considered dropping the variety from my coop for the reasons you have listed above and use my energy and space for other varieties I have that have not gotten my fullest attention.

 

[ki4got]

Hey all,

I am curious about The Standard when it comes to patterned varieties, why does it still describe birds that cannot be bred from single mating?

To a newcomer like me this seems a bit absurd, as now you are breeding two separate varieties under the guise of a male bird and a female bird of the same variety.

Look at Partridge (and Silver Pencilled), the male described is more like a Duckwing, the female a patterned brown.

Both, as currently described in the standard, cannot be bred consistently (or at all )by single mating. So why do we need to breed two separate lines to enter one variety?

Surely the standard should actually reflect what can be achieved by mating male to female in one pen?

Is there something simple i am missing here, because these birds described are not only different in phenotype but in genotype as well, how are these the same birds?

Male partridge lacks Pg in its pure form, female has pure Pg. This to me shows two separate varieties, not one. Why cant we show the males that produce the SQ females, why are chests still required to be fully black? Something that does not seem possible from a SQ male to SQ female breeding.

Our standard here is a "copy and paste" from yours in the States, and while i have no problem with that, i cant help but think there is some antiquated thinking here that is not helping the fancy at all in the long run.

Not angry or upset, just really confused at why this is what is required. It doesnt make sense to me.

the colored dorking is another that doesn't breed true. my understanding is, when it was added to the sop they just picked a couple they liked and said that's it. LOL

 

[lilcrow]

Hey all,

I am curious about The Standard when it comes to patterned varieties, why does it still describe birds that cannot be bred from single mating?

To a newcomer like me this seems a bit absurd, as now you are breeding two separate varieties under the guise of a male bird and a female bird of the same variety.

Look at Partridge (and Silver Pencilled), the male described is more like a Duckwing, the female a patterned brown.

Both, as currently described in the standard, cannot be bred consistently (or at all )by single mating. So why do we need to breed two separate lines to enter one variety?

Surely the standard should actually reflect what can be achieved by mating male to female in one pen?

Is there something simple i am missing here, because these birds described are not only different in phenotype but in genotype as well, how are these the same birds?

Male partridge lacks Pg in its pure form, female has pure Pg. This to me shows two separate varieties, not one. Why cant we show the males that produce the SQ females, why are chests still required to be fully black? Something that does not seem possible from a SQ male to SQ female breeding.

Our standard here is a "copy and paste" from yours in the States, and while i have no problem with that, i cant help but think there is some antiquated thinking here that is not helping the fancy at all in the long run.

Not angry or upset, just really confused at why this is what is required. It doesnt make sense to me.

Andy, I'm right there with you on this and Craig, I hope you keep breeding. I'm afraid the variety could be on the brink of extinction. Every time the issue of double breeding comes up it makes me angry at those "old timers" that kept their secrets so close to the chest and made it nearly impossible to breed some of our varieties. How is the breed to benefit from this?
I think there should be a way of looking into this and possibly rewriting the standards.
Craig, do you have the same issue with your Silver Penciled? I'm assuming there are the same issues with them since they are the silver version of Partridge. Partridge is maybe my favorite variety, but I gave up on them because I don't have enough space, energy and know how to breed them correctly. Very interesting topic Andy.

 

[ki4got]

Andy, I'm right there with you on this and Craig, I hope you keep breeding. I'm afraid the variety could be on the brink of extinction. Every time the issue of double breeding comes up it makes me angry at those "old timers" that kept their secrets so close to the chest and made it nearly impossible to breed some of our varieties. How is the breed to benefit from this?
I think there should be a way of looking into this and possibly rewriting the standards.
Craig, do you have the same issue with your Silver Penciled? I'm assuming there are the same issues with them since they are the silver version of Partridge. Partridge is maybe my favorite variety, but I gave up on them because I don't have enough space, energy and know how to breed them correctly. Very interesting topic Andy.

personally, when I see birds that "require" double breeding, I wonder which would be preferable... IMO, you are NOT going to have a flock of roos around, but you will have a flock of hens. so IMO it's the hens that need to display the variety to their best. LOL

in the case of the colored dorking, i'm planning (someday when I have breeding pens finished and the predator issue under control) to start working with them again, and see if I can 'reengineer' the variety to meet sop somewhat, as well as breed true. in this case though i'm going to work on a roo that breeds true and whatever hen matches him.

 

[Black Cochin Bantams]

personally, when I see birds that "require" double breeding, I wonder which would be preferable... IMO, you are NOT going to have a flock of roos around, but you will have a flock of hens. so IMO it's the hens that need to display the variety to their best. LOL

in the case of the colored dorking, i'm planning (someday when I have breeding pens finished and the predator issue under control) to start working with them again, and see if I can 'reengineer' the variety to meet sop somewhat, as well as breed true. in this case though i'm going to work on a roo that breeds true and whatever hen matches him.

In both cases SP and Partridge I try to breed for hen markings and use the best male I have. All the space and energy I have to give for the variety.

 

[AndyCap]

It baffles me a bit i must admit. There seem to be enough problems with getting people to breed these varieties, and then to add salt to the wounds, you are doubling the amount of birds(feed/space) needed to produce both lines.

The Partridge Brahma people i have spoken to here insist it is possible to breed SQ cocks and hens from one line. I havent seen any of these pens yet though and people are rather cagey when i ask them if i can come by and see their stock, even after i explain that i am only breeding cochin bantams!

That aside, who would you approach to try and rectify this? I dont want the Standards here re-written, just modified. In Germany i believe birds with ground colour in their chest are allowable, in Holland they are a DQ.

Maybe an amendment would be the place to start? I am off to email a whole lot of people and see what can be done here.